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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#161

Post by idrios »

JAlexoid wrote: post #81
supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

I don't even think this was true when people were saying it 5 years ago, but it's definitely not true now. Literally yesterday I met a kid doing sales at Microcenter with a CS degree who couldn't find a dev job after 1.5 years of searching. Go to any programmers meetup in your city and there will be dozens of people trying to network into a dev job. Look up any video online of "I applied to 500 jobs" from people trying to break into a software role. Look at the reddit page for any bootcamp to see all the CS grads asking if it'll get them a job. American CS graduates aren't starry eyed for FAANG jobs, they're starving for any jobs

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#162

Post by theGnuMe »

chabons wrote: post #149
User23 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

> Obviously you displaced a US citizen [...] I'm not sure this is obvious. 1) Apple is a multi-national company, and hires an employee in the UK. 2) This employee relocates to the US At what point do they displace the US citizen? All Apple jobs are not earmarked for US citizens (+residents, etc...), and they're already doing the job when they move to the US. Unless they're hired abroad for the express purpose of relo…

Yes you are doing both actually.

There is a special visa for this. In the US it is an L1 visa.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#163

Post by Racing0461 »

JAlexoid wrote: post #77
dfadsadsf wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k a…

Why should someone making 700k be any different than an 80k employee? Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

> Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

actually, nurses are. The process apple discriminated in from the article, nurses are considered by statute to be "approved" so they just move on to the next step (i140/i485 or visa) which is just a rubber stamp assuming all the documents are in order.

> nurses to bypass the PERM certification process is the Schedule A designation. Schedule A is a list of pre-certified occupations that the Department of Labor (DOL) has determined there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available. Because of this, employers seeking to hire foreign workers in these occupations do not need to go through the labor certification process, which is what PERM involves.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#164

Post by bubblethink »

sangnoir wrote: post #152
ericye16 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that immigration law should be changed so companies don't have to jump through hoops like this.

I too believe there has to be reform, but I also believe this is Apple being lazy/doing this for convenience. If the individuals are more skilled than citizens, the Apple should have been prepared to open the interviews for those jobs to everyone (including citizens and permanent residents), selected the (person they knew to have been) the best and gotten the paperwork in order. The subterfuge would be completely unn…

There is no such thing as correct class. Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. And almost everyone needs to go through the same process which involves this PERM business. And everyone needs to participate in this charade of hiring someone once, then pretending that they don't have the employee, and then emerging victorious by putting out an ad that only that person satisfies. The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#165

Post by theGnuMe »

jrockway wrote: post #120
liquidpele wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they have a good employee I think you mean cheaper employee.

I really don't think Big Tech is using H1-B and greencards to buy fake loyalty or cheaper labor. If your current employer applied for a visa for you, your future employer will too. (To some extent, startups get screwed here, since nobody on an H1-B is going to ditch Apple to work at your startup.) H1-B salaries are public information; and they are exactly the same as what everyone else puts on levels.fyi. I worked at…

Legally there cannot be comp differences. The issue is once you get the H1B you have them for 7+ years. Obviously they can change companies but it is not without risk.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#166

Post by 4death4 »

chabons wrote: post #149
User23 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

> Obviously you displaced a US citizen [...] I'm not sure this is obvious. 1) Apple is a multi-national company, and hires an employee in the UK. 2) This employee relocates to the US At what point do they displace the US citizen? All Apple jobs are not earmarked for US citizens (+residents, etc...), and they're already doing the job when they move to the US. Unless they're hired abroad for the express purpose of relo…

According to TFA, the discrimination happens when Apple doesn’t adequately look for a U.S. employee and instead chooses to to relocate you to the US. How is that not obvious? If Apple is happy to hire you in the UK and you’re happy to live there, the DOJ isn’t going to ask many questions.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#167

Post by vkou »

ralph84 wrote: post #138
JAlexoid wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should someone making 700k be any different than an 80k employee? Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

Because if there was actually a shortage of $80k employees the salary would increase. There is no better way to determine where there’s a shortage than the salary.

Are you implying that there is an intractable shortage of CEOs in America, that it's MBA education system has utterly failed to meet demand for?

Would that explain why their salaries have skyrocketed over the past few decades?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#168

Post by injb »

jrockway wrote: post #120
liquidpele wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they have a good employee I think you mean cheaper employee.

I really don't think Big Tech is using H1-B and greencards to buy fake loyalty or cheaper labor. If your current employer applied for a visa for you, your future employer will too. (To some extent, startups get screwed here, since nobody on an H1-B is going to ditch Apple to work at your startup.) H1-B salaries are public information; and they are exactly the same as what everyone else puts on levels.fyi. I worked at…

Right but the argument (the good one) isn't that they're paid less - it's that you're paid less because they are available. If US employers couldn't import workers they'd have to pay you more.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#169

Post by geodel »

tomohelix wrote: post #62
dfadsadsf wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k a…

Hilariously enough, a real rocket scientist, e.g. a NASA scientist, has an average salary around 100K. SWE salary is heavily inflated and even the flawed process we have now is better than one where you only look at the absolute amount of compensation. Why, most scientist jobs requiring PhD pay less than 200K. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NASA-Scientist-Salaries-E73... https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posti…

> An online paper mill graduate would have a very hard time passing EB2 vetting.

Nope. Not at all. I am rather intimately familiar with lot of people who have gone through that vaunted EB2 vetting with their fake US or foreign degrees, fake job experiences at fake companies with fake addresses and so on.

Few may get caught but most of them will get through the system with enough persistence.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#170

Post by jrockway »

injb wrote: post #168
jrockway wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think Big Tech is using H1-B and greencards to buy fake loyalty or cheaper labor. If your current employer applied for a visa for you, your future employer will too. (To some extent, startups get screwed here, since nobody on an H1-B is going to ditch Apple to work at your startup.) H1-B salaries are public information; and they are exactly the same as what everyone else puts on levels.fyi. I worked at…

Right but the argument (the good one) isn't that they're paid less - it's that you're paid less because they are available. If US employers couldn't import workers they'd have to pay you more.

I don't really believe it. The companies would just offshore to a country with more preferential immigration treatment. Remember that plan for a boat in international waters where programmers who can't get visas would work for companies in San Francisco with the same time zone? That's what limiting immigration would accomplish. Immigration has maybe one effect, increasing the tax base.
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