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GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

nytimes.com

161–170 of 190 posts

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#161
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Cruise AVs are being remotely assisted (RA) 2-4% of the time on average, in complex urban environments. This is low enough already that there isn’t a huge cost benefit to optimizing much further, especially given how useful it is to have humans review things in certain situations. Funny, since I thought full autonomy was the goal of the company. 2 percent human intervention isn't scalable.

Huh? 100% is scalable, and it’s the common case today. 2% scales just as linearly as 100% does.

That very much depends on the implementation.

For example - does the vehicle have to come to a full stop, as it can't safely proceed without an operator intervention? At busy periods, do they also have to wait for an operator to become available?

A busy junction could easily have 100 cars through it per minute. If two cars every minute stopped unexpectedly, that would hardly be scalable.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#162
post #112
post #60

Cruise CEO here. Some relevant context follows. Cruise AVs are being remotely assisted (RA) 2-4% of the time on average, in complex urban environments. This is low enough already that there isn’t a huge cost benefit to optimizing much further, especially given how useful it is to have humans review things in certain situations. The stat quoted by nyt is how frequently the AVs initiate an RA session. Of those, many ar…

I would consider this realistic service design, just as Meta’s Cicero (plays blitz Diplomacy) is smart design. It might work as a service. What the answer glances over is that even with just 3% of the time requiring human assistance (2 minutes out of every hour) the term ‘autonomous vehicle’ is not really applicable anymore in the sense everybody is using/understanding that term. The idea behind that term assumed ‘fu…

By this logic Tesla does not have "autonomous vehicles" either. They just do adjustments after the car crashes and kills someone instead of doing it online.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#163
post #60

Cruise CEO here. Some relevant context follows. Cruise AVs are being remotely assisted (RA) 2-4% of the time on average, in complex urban environments. This is low enough already that there isn’t a huge cost benefit to optimizing much further, especially given how useful it is to have humans review things in certain situations. The stat quoted by nyt is how frequently the AVs initiate an RA session. Of those, many ar…

It's telling that you declined a request for an interview, yet still feel the need to clarify on HN. You'd be doing a lot better with transparency and public trust by just taking the interview.

Is there something that's covered by an interview that a list of questions or email exchange wouldn't? Interviews take up a valuable chunk of the CEOs time, so I'm somewhat sympathetic to them declining it.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#164

This was a plot point in Captain Laserhawk: All the self-driving cars and flying drones were actually being remotely piloted by prisoners in a massive VR facility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Laserhawk:_A_Blood_Dra...

There is a movie where the border wall has been built and they pay Mexicans to remote operate drones and other equipment north of the border.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#165
post #60

Cruise CEO here. Some relevant context follows. Cruise AVs are being remotely assisted (RA) 2-4% of the time on average, in complex urban environments. This is low enough already that there isn’t a huge cost benefit to optimizing much further, especially given how useful it is to have humans review things in certain situations. The stat quoted by nyt is how frequently the AVs initiate an RA session. Of those, many ar…

Hello Cruise CEO, there's a huge market for durable and profitable "dumb" cars. Why don't you get on that market? In a time when electronics represents over 30% of car costs and ~50% of car failures, people like me would be happy to buy a car that doesn't suck (low-tech) and can be maintained for decades for a reasonable price. In the meantime, i'll keep buying old Renault/Peugeot cars from the fifties/sixties i gues…

I actually concur, my DPF is a nagging beast and I hate it.

But I am betting that quite a lot of the electronic components of cars these days are tied to things, my DPF is a great example, that come from safety and environmental regulation. If you pull the ECU out and tricked the motor into running anyway, I am betting your emissions profile will suck massively. Ditto transmission. The rest of my car seems to involve safety features, sensors and cameras mostly.

By the time you reinvent the car to exclude all these things, then make it roadworthy again I reckon you would end up with almost exactly the standard modern car again. Car makers arent putting computers in for funsies.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#166
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 2% is not the person in the vehicle, it’s cruise employees. It doesn’t scale because it is paid employees intervening instead of the customer driving. It scales in comparison to ride sharing competition but not in terms of people owning the vehicles.

They could spend $75/hr on employees and the cost per car-hour would be just $1.50. That's nothing. 3.5M people work as truck drivers in the US, enough, in principle, to drive ~175M cars at the same time assuming 2% of cars need help at any given moment, ie ~60% of all the cars and trucks in the entire country being driven simultaneously. Presumably though they'd be able to shave that down a few fold between where th…

[deleted]

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could spend $75/hr on employees and the cost per car-hour would be just $1.50. That's nothing. 3.5M people work as truck drivers in the US, enough, in principle, to drive ~175M cars at the same time assuming 2% of cars need help at any given moment, ie ~60% of all the cars and trucks in the entire country being driven simultaneously. Presumably though they'd be able to shave that down a few fold between where th…

This is true, but the numbers inflated even. There's no way they'll pay these people more than $15 or $20 an hour once it scales, which probably further helps your point.

It does have a much better work/life balance than most driving jobs, though.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello Cruise CEO, there's a huge market for durable and profitable "dumb" cars. Why don't you get on that market? In a time when electronics represents over 30% of car costs and ~50% of car failures, people like me would be happy to buy a car that doesn't suck (low-tech) and can be maintained for decades for a reasonable price. In the meantime, i'll keep buying old Renault/Peugeot cars from the fifties/sixties i gues…

Sounds like the market works and you can easily find the cars you’re looking for that last “forever”

That's not wrong, but still some parts wear out and it's harder to find them nowadays. Although to be fair there's still some production for the most popular cars (eg. 2CH, 4L).

But it would be interesting if we took that old "built forever" approach (remember washing machines that last a lifetime?) and used it to build modern low-tech cars with the newer higher safety standards and efficiency gains. It's a shame how everything that comes out of factories nowadays has a 10 year lifespan.

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello Cruise CEO, there's a huge market for durable and profitable "dumb" cars. Why don't you get on that market? In a time when electronics represents over 30% of car costs and ~50% of car failures, people like me would be happy to buy a car that doesn't suck (low-tech) and can be maintained for decades for a reasonable price. In the meantime, i'll keep buying old Renault/Peugeot cars from the fifties/sixties i gues…

I actually concur, my DPF is a nagging beast and I hate it. But I am betting that quite a lot of the electronic components of cars these days are tied to things, my DPF is a great example, that come from safety and environmental regulation. If you pull the ECU out and tricked the motor into running anyway, I am betting your emissions profile will suck massively. Ditto transmission. The rest of my car seems to involve…

> Car makers arent putting computers in for funsies.

There's a bit of everything. Some parts are due to regulations. Some parts are due to providing fancy options (LCD screens, seat heaters..), some parts are useful for diagnostics.

Still, some designs are overly complex because during production it's easier to use a hundred MCUs assigned to a specific task. But for durability purposes, it would be better to have clear circuitry with only a handful of MCUs running open source software.

I'm guessing there's an interesting middle ground to explore between "raw motor + wheels" and "FSD car".

Re: GM's Cruise alleged to rely on human operators to achieve "autonomous" driving

#170
post #60

Cruise CEO here. Some relevant context follows. Cruise AVs are being remotely assisted (RA) 2-4% of the time on average, in complex urban environments. This is low enough already that there isn’t a huge cost benefit to optimizing much further, especially given how useful it is to have humans review things in certain situations. The stat quoted by nyt is how frequently the AVs initiate an RA session. Of those, many ar…

Hello Cruise CEO, there's a huge market for durable and profitable "dumb" cars. Why don't you get on that market? In a time when electronics represents over 30% of car costs and ~50% of car failures, people like me would be happy to buy a car that doesn't suck (low-tech) and can be maintained for decades for a reasonable price. In the meantime, i'll keep buying old Renault/Peugeot cars from the fifties/sixties i gues…

The things you say are just factually wrong on many levels.

> durable and profitable "dumb" cars

Both of these are pretty much wrong.

First of all, just based on regulation and safety, the car is gone have a huge amount of electronics. Second, regulation about emissions also require a huge amount of electronics. You can't get away from that no matter how dumb you want to make a car. Maybe you don't like it, but society prefers less people to die even if it is not inconvenient for you.

Granted, in many way an old inefficient smaller car is still saver and better for the environment then a modern huge car. But that i a failure of the regulation.

Next the idea is that such cars would be profitable. This is simply inaccurate. Car companies can barley make money on cars as it is, in fact, without parts supply they don't really make money on those cars.

Additionally most consumers simply prefer to buy cars with lots of multimedia options and things like that. Having the ability to warm up your car before you get in is useful for example. Having phone conversations in your car is useful. Having GPS in your car is useful. People like having heated seats. People like having good sound in the car.

People simply aren't buying the cars you seem to be demanding and doing such cars simply wouldn't be profitable. In fact, generally if you look at China you will see an increase in the types of features you don't like.

To suggest an autonomous car company gets into that business makes no sense at all.

And I say this as somebody that doesn't own a car and generally thinks cars should be replaced as much as possible and band in many places.

There are many ways repeatability could be improved without going back to 1960s cars. Many of those should be embraced but you will simply not get around some inherent complexity of the modern world.

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