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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#161

Post by tlogan »

kouru225 wrote: post #155
tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

How does this compare to Portugal’s wild success when it comes to decriminalizing hard drugs? Seems like SF is a way less useful example.

Portugal is disaster. I went there but here is a link [1] :(

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#162

Post by skyyler »

wonderwonder wrote: post #38
soligern wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should couple decriminalization with stringent arrests for public use and public intoxication. It’s so damn simple, why won’t they do it. Set a limit above which you’re not allowed to be loitering on the streets like they do with alcohol.

This is definitely part of the answer. Walking through the streets of San Francisco a while ago with my kids I was shocked to see people just lying on the side walk in pools of their own vomit. Also was very protective of my kids walking past people that were obviously on drugs and out of their minds. These people became not so much people but just a threat. It seemed inhumane to just leave them like that. With that…

>These people became not so much people but just a threat.

This is part of the problem. They are a threat, but they're also still people.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#163

Post by anon84873628 »

kouru225 wrote: post #155
tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

How does this compare to Portugal’s wild success when it comes to decriminalizing hard drugs? Seems like SF is a way less useful example.

I suspect there may be a network effects / regulatory arbitrage problem. If only a small number of places decriminalize drugs, that will attract lots of drug addicts without being able to support them. The policies need to be more universal in order for them to bear fruit... Though I realize this sounds like doubling down on failure. It would explain why a country wide program like Portugal could be more successful.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#164

Post by [deleted] »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#165

Post by rvcdbn »

tlogan wrote: post #143
rvcdbn wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

I understand. But what is the solution? Just wait for them to all die? Here in San fransciso we have 3 overdose death per day. That is 40% spike from last years. In 2017 we had 222 overdose death for entire year and we reached that number by march 15h this year. [1] https://sf.gov/sites/default/files/2021-05/2021%2005_OCME%20...

The solution that seems most likely to work IMO seems to be a European-style welfare state. All drugs have long been decriminalized in Portugal and you don’t see that kind of thing on the streets of Lisbon. But I don’t see that happening any time soon in the USA.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#166

Post by fragmede »

gspencley wrote: post #61

It's working just fine. I guess if you want drug use to go down, or to reduce deaths etc. if those specific metrics are you goals, and nothing else matters, that's one thing. Maybe it is not "working" by those standards. But I don't want a government having any opinion on what people put into their own bodies. It is a health/medical issue and, in a broader context, a liberty issue. It is not a legal issue in my opini…

I absolutely want my government to have an opinion on what people put into their bodies. If I go to the store and buy a loaf of bread, and instead I get a loaf with a high concentration of bleach, used to clean the machines at the factory, and it kills me, I think the government should have an opinion on it. I think they should do what it can to prevent that from happening. I do want a government that regulates drugs so that if I buy Tylenol, I'm going to get Tylenol and not melamine pills. If someone is selling a pill and says it makes me lose weight or regrow hair, I want the government to have the opinion that if they make that claim, they must have scientifically run studies to back that up. I'm not saying the FDA is perfect, far from it! But the government's duty is to its people, so I, personally, think that government should play some role in what goes into people's bodies, to make sure people know what they're getting, and they're getting what they paid for.

That the government has extended their reach to criminalize things people choose to put into their bodies, and the resulting problems that's caused and causing, is a travesty, but I think saying the government should have _no_ opinion on that is going too far.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#167

Post by monknomo »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #27
gremlinsinc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I see it as a failure in implementing a better road to recidivism for drug users that doesn't involve prison. It's a mental health issue after all. I think perhaps maybe even separate "mental" health from normal healthcare and make it free / universal might go a long way. Maybe insentivize it, like giving plasma. Go to therapy 4 weeks in a row get $100 cash. That way it's not "forcing" people into something whi…

Why would mental health be separated from "normal" healthcare? Mental health involves chemical signals in the brain. Once a chemical dependency has been established, how possible is it to "talk" someone out of it in therapy?

well, the thing with mental healthcare compared with regular healthcare is that the first bit of it is often kind of coercive?

Like folks with chest pain want it fixed.

But folks who hear voices/are addicted to something/suffer from crippling anxiety often don't want to fix it for a variety of reasons, some of which are even pretty good (such as nasty medication side effects). Crossing that hurdle is tough

And you can talk someone out of a chemical dependency. Or rather, you can talk them into suffering through it, much the same way as you can talk someone into suffering through climbing a mountain or similar.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#168

Post by esotericimpl »

ecshafer wrote: post #149

Supporting legalization / decriminalization of hard drugs is a luxury belief. If you’re in a nice rich circle it’s easy to believe it doesn’t harm anyone except yourself. If you are around people that become drug addicts, it becomes apparent that it drastically harms everyone around them, themselves probably not the most. You can only see so many addict parents throw away the money for kids food, or pawn of their kid…

[dead]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#169

Post by Hermitian909 »

ecf wrote: post #131
tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I don’t have any evidence to back this feeling up so take it with a grain of salt: San Francisco has a drug problem simply because it’s one of few places in the country where it’s safe to have a drug problem. Other states pay for addicts/homeless to be shipped off to California and all of a sudden it becomes our taxpayer problem. If drugs were legalized country-wide then SF wouldn’t have the concentration it does and…

> Other states pay for addicts/homeless to be shipped off to California

This has happened but it's not substantial, most homeless in CA were living here and homed before becoming homeless[0]

> San Francisco has a drug problem simply because it’s one of few places in the country where it’s safe to have a drug problem

I've spent a lot of time volunteering with the homeless in SF. This doesn't match the data or anecdotal experience. Many drug addicts follow the path of becoming homeless (overwhelmingly because of cost of living) and transitioning into hard drugs to cope with the pain of living on the street.

[0] https://homelessness.ucsf.edu/our-impact/our-studies/califor...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#170

Post by rvcdbn »

z0r wrote: post #148
rvcdbn wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have built a society where the best options for these people are to do what they are doing. Nobody starts using because they have a great life but they’re just curious what a bit of meth feels like and then accidentally get hooked. They do it because there’s no better life path open to them. It’s really a form of suicide. Criminalizing will make the suicide process faster and less visible to you. It won’t stop any…

I think you're oversimplifying things a little bit. Some people will try e.g. heroin and get hooked due to curiosity. Some people do derail otherwise promising lives with drug and alcohol use.

How many people do you know who work in harm reduction? How many of your friends are regular drug users? I’m speaking from direct experience are you? or are you just making assumptions that make you feel more comfortable?
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