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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#161

One of the proposals for WEI is to make it probabilistically fail. Ie. on a given device, for 10% of websites, WEI pretends to be unsupported. That means websites can't deny service where WEI is unsupported. Yet it still allows statistical analysis across bulk user accounts. If WEI was implemented like this, I would support it as being good for the web ecosystem.

The attitude from Google towards this has changed significantly over the last few days (unsurprisingly).

From the "explainer": "we are evaluating whether attestation signals must sometimes be held back [...] However, a holdback also has significant drawbacks [...] a deterministic but limited-entropy attestation [i.e. no holdback] would obviate the need for invasive fingerprinting".

From the Google worker's most recent comment on the issue: 'WEI prevents ecosystem lock-in through hold-backs [...] This is designed to prevent WEI from becoming “DRM for the web”'

So, in other words, WEI could be used to prevent fingerprinting, but won't be able to if holdback is introduced -- 5-10% of clients would still get fingerprinted.

Looking at the list of "scenarios where users depend on client trust", all of them would be impacted by a holdback mechanism:

- Preventing ad fraud: not for the holdback group

- Bot and sockpuppet accounts on social media: not for the holdback group

- Preventing cheating in games: not for the holdback group -- and thus not for anyone playing against someone in the holdback group

- Preventing malicious software that imitates a banking app: not for the holdback group

In other words, if there was holdback, WEI would require places which currently fingerprint to retain and maintain the fingerprinting code and apply it to fewer users, in the best case, or would be completely useless in the worst case (for things like games).

However, it's also quite interesting to look at the implications of successfully attesting a browser which supports arbitrary extensions:

- Preventing ad fraud: install an automation extension

- Bot and sockpuppet accounts: as above

- Cheating in games: install an extension which allows cheating

- Malicious software which imitates a banking app: a malicious browser extension could do this easily.

In other words, unless you attest the browser with its extensions, none of the trust scenarios outlined in the explainer are actually helped by WEI. It's not obvious whether the Google employee who wrote this deliberately didn't think about these things, or whether the 'explainer' is just a collection of unconnected ideas, but it doesn't appear to hold together.

It is not surprising that the first target of WEI -- Chrome on Android -- does not support extensions.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#162
From the spec author, in 2022 [0]:

> I decided to make this an app in the end. This is where my costs started wracking up. I had to pay for a second hand macbook pro to build an iOS app. Apple’s strategy with this is obvious, and it clearly works, but it still greatly upsets me that I couldn’t just build an app with my linux laptop. If I want the app to persist for longer than a month, and to make it easy for friends to install, I had to pay $99 for a developer account. Come on Apple, I know you want people to use the app story but this is just a little cruel. I basically have to pay $99 a year now just to keep using my little app.

The double-think is absolutely astounding.

[0] https://benwiser.com/blog/I-just-spent-%C2%A3700-to-have-my-...

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#163
post #5

I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…

Yeah, financial and social pressure is basically the only weapons we have against corporations when regulations don't exist. And honestly, financial pressure doesn't work at this scale or in this case.

> when regulations don't exist

It’s very likely governments will make this mandatory if they have the chance to regulate over this.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#164
post #5

I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…

Yeah, financial and social pressure is basically the only weapons we have against corporations when regulations don't exist. And honestly, financial pressure doesn't work at this scale or in this case.

[dead]

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure they are all going to block iOS users from using their services.

iOS already implemented this stuff

Not only did iOS implement this, but everyone either sleep-walked on it, or worse, praised it, because Apple sold it as a CAPTCHA bypass instead of a DRM scheme: https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/110775677023220850

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#167

One of the proposals for WEI is to make it probabilistically fail. Ie. on a given device, for 10% of websites, WEI pretends to be unsupported. That means websites can't deny service where WEI is unsupported. Yet it still allows statistical analysis across bulk user accounts. If WEI was implemented like this, I would support it as being good for the web ecosystem.

Here's how this goes:

WEI randomly fails, website sees it, has never implemented any error checking (or fails on purpose without WEI), WEI becomes effectively mandatory.

Google is a gun manufacturer telling people on the other end of it "don't worry, every one in 20 bullets doesn't fire".

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#168

Apple would be in the position to fight this.

All of the major tech companies are in on this. Google and Apple already deployed it for their phone and desktop platforms (iOS, Android, macOS, ChromeOS, all support attestation already). Microsoft is getting there with Windows 11, and all new devices shipping since ~2015 have the hardware support. Google is now closing the gap on desktop browsers. Soon the percentage of people supporting it will be high enough to m…

Thanks for the info, i wasn't aware of that at all.

> They'll do it when their bank website tells them so.

Right.

> The day Cloudflare flips the switch to require it for all connections is the day the open web dies.

Makes sense and unfortunately seems realistic.

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