Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The deindustrialization of Germany

politico.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 175 posts

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#161

Post by jamil7 »

radiator wrote: post #160
jamil7 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak German, but only after being here 7 years. Are you seriously taking the side that a new immigrant in the country should be able to navigate a complicated immigration and registration process, documents and interviews in German? It’s not an easy language to learn and the expectation should not be that you’ve somehow mastered it before moving to the country. Your second point is also irrelevant since officials…

7 years is too long in my opinion, but better late that never I guess. I don't know whether Germans delude themselves about the relevance of German abroad, but I understand that some people delude themselves about the relevance of other languages (English) inside Germany. What I say is valid for all countries, i.e. if you move to France/Italy/Netherlands/Denmark you should learn French/Italian/Dutch/Danish.

> 7 years is too long in my opinion, but better late that never I guess.

I said I speak German, not I started learning German. I don’t think C1 after 7 years while also working a full-time job and eventually starting a business is all that bad. This is the expected path for a skilled migrant to keep their visa status, there isn’t exactly the opportunity to do an immersion course. How many languages do you speak?

I didn’t anywhere allude to the importance of English in Germany outside of offering a path for immigrants since it’s somewhat of a modern lingua franca.

> What I say is valid for all countries, i.e. if you move to France/Italy/Netherlands/Denmark you should learn French/Italian/Dutch/Danish.

At least two of the countries you list offer immigration services in English. Again, no one is saying you shouldn’t learn the language.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#162

Post by brazzy »

jdasdf wrote: post #155
wernercd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

It's funny how all of that can be applied without any changes at all to attack libertarianism (or anything, really).

It is infact you, the person you are agreeing with, and Paul Birch who have spent their whole lives supporting theft, grift and coercion.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#163

Post by adventured »

patall wrote: post #99
tasubotadas wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The worst is yet to come. - Germany is heavily reliant on industry (like Autos) - Cheap energy has ended due to war in Ukraine - The available replacements are going to be even more expensive (and they are still closing more nuclear plants) - The production costs will increase reducing their competitiveness even further - The competitives was bad even before this (VW vs Tesla anyone?) - Once the huge layoffs and…

> - Cheap energy has ended due to war in Ukraine While there is some truth to that, energy prices are lower than at the start of the war. > - The available replacements are going to be even more expensive (and they are still closing more nuclear plants) There are no nuclear plants left. And Germany just got 12.6 billion from auctioning of building rights for 4 new wind parks (with capped price limits of 6.3ct/kW/h. >…

> The budget of the german state is almost balanced. How does it look in the US?

While I agree with the sentiment - you tell me when the USD is going to lose its global status, and I'll tell you when we need to be concerned about the budget deficits.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#164

Post by Archelaos »

nradov wrote: post #92
Archelaos wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German government is subsidising gas consumption by industry very heavily at the moment to prevent this. A press release on the relevant legislation can be found here (in German): https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/aktuelles/energieprei... The most important section in this matter reads in English translation as follows: "From January 2023, industrial customers will receive 70% of their natural gas consumptio…

Right but that level of subsidization is unsustainable. What is the end game? Cheap Russian natural gas is unlikely to return soon enough to save the German chemicals industry.

Since the beginning of the year, the wholesale gas price in Europe has already returned to the level seen before the Russian-Ukrainian war.

See: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Gasversorgung/aktuelle_g... (in German)

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#166

Post by nradov »

gmerc wrote: post #137
nradov wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just energy but specifically access to natural gas. Even when not burned for power and heat it acts as an essential feedstock for much of the German chemicals industry. With flows from Russia being reduced or eliminated there is no choice but to relocate production.

And the reason would be that profits were frontloaded and needed reforms were delayed. Germany had a pretty audacious but absolutely achievable renewables plan 15 years ago but Schroeder & Merkel canned it for cheap Russian Gas and now that the price for that has become apparent there wailing and screaming. It’s just normalizing - if the original plan had been pursued, profits would not have been that great but the c…

You're missing the point. Renewable power generation is nice but it doesn't help with chemical manufacturing.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#167

Post by wernercd »

brazzy wrote: post #135
wernercd wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your position is simply wrong, and absurdly intellectually dishonest. It starts with "greed is wanting that which you didn't earn". No, that is not what greed is by any stretch of imagination. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/greed "a very strong wish to continuously get more of something, especially food or money" It is, by definition, the rich who are greedy. Those who want to limit generational…

[flagged]

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#168

Post by FirmwareBurner »

radiator wrote: post #160
jamil7 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak German, but only after being here 7 years. Are you seriously taking the side that a new immigrant in the country should be able to navigate a complicated immigration and registration process, documents and interviews in German? It’s not an easy language to learn and the expectation should not be that you’ve somehow mastered it before moving to the country. Your second point is also irrelevant since officials…

7 years is too long in my opinion, but better late that never I guess. I don't know whether Germans delude themselves about the relevance of German abroad, but I understand that some people delude themselves about the relevance of other languages (English) inside Germany. What I say is valid for all countries, i.e. if you move to France/Italy/Netherlands/Denmark you should learn French/Italian/Dutch/Danish.

>7 years is too long in my opinion

Then you haven't met most expats in Germany, who, especially in the tech sectors in the big cities, can only manage to order a beer in German after 7 years. Which is understandable, even if you take courses, when your expat friend group is all in English and your workplaces is also all in English, there's not many opportunities for you to perfect.

Also, the necessity of learning a new foreign language and navigate a completely different bureaucratic labyrinth every time you move for work to a different EU country is what's holding the EU development back versus the US.

Imagine if someone from Ohio had to learn a new language when moving to California for a a job. As an European, I think EU countries should give up some slack on the national pride, and be more open to standardizing bureaucracy in English to gain a competitive edge on labor and capital mobility against the US, even though I know nationalistic countries like France and Austria would rather die on that hill than adopt a foreign language as an alternative to their own.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#169

Post by FirmwareBurner »

nradov wrote: post #166
gmerc wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason would be that profits were frontloaded and needed reforms were delayed. Germany had a pretty audacious but absolutely achievable renewables plan 15 years ago but Schroeder & Merkel canned it for cheap Russian Gas and now that the price for that has become apparent there wailing and screaming. It’s just normalizing - if the original plan had been pursued, profits would not have been that great but the c…

You're missing the point. Renewable power generation is nice but it doesn't help with chemical manufacturing.

Indeed. People miss the point that metal smelting and chemical plants are built around gas and can't switch to electric over night. Basically entire sectors of Germany's economy have made themselves dependent on that sweeet cheap Russian gas.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#170

Post by dermesser »

tasubotadas wrote: post #72
lyu07282 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also gutting labor rights, but I suppose that's always suggested by liberals no matter what

What about employer rights? Right to fire poorly performing schmucks?

Once you're the schmuck, or your company starts laying off, you'll start appreciating it. (As has recently happened in my family)
Post reply on HN