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Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

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Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#161

Post by Untitled »

ucee054 wrote: post #158
Untitled wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sale of the Phalcon radar to China is recent. You mentioned the USS Liberty and then I mentioned that it happened long ago. Then you mention something completely different and unrelated. Don’t change the topic and just answer me this: 1. Did the USS Liberty event happen more than 40 years ago? 2. Was it an accident? > The sale of the Phalcon radar to China is recent. Israel did not sell the Radar to China, you…

>1. Did the USS Liberty event happen more than 40 years ago? >2. Was it an accident? In the links in my original post 'Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, the director of the NSA, told Congress that the attack "couldn't be anything else but deliberate."' > Israel did not sell the Radar to China, you are lying to me. You owe me a retraction. In the links in my original post "Cohen demanded Israel cancel the US $1-2 billion sale…

> In the links in my original post 'Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, the director of the NSA,

Blah blah blah. An investigation of the US government concluded that the attack was an accident. Israel also had no motive to attack the USA and it happened in the middle of a war.

> I never claimed the sale went through.

I do not read your links to fringe sites. You talked of a "sale" (past tense).

To make vague comments about the arms industry is quite dubious. You know that the USA itself sells arms to countries which may not be so nice? (e.g. Saudi Arabia).

> I believe a lot of hackers would think twice about supplying advanced technology to Israel if they knew the facts about Israelis trying to sell it to China (or in the old days Apartheid South Africa)

Trying to flog a dead horse. You know that a lot of the technology that was passed on to South Africa by Israel was at the behest of the USA? You know that the USA encouraged SA to enter a war in Angola to support anti-communist groups and prevent the spread of communism in Africa? That the USA could not directly support UNITA because congress was being unco-operative?

You know that the Soviet Union directly (and through its proxies such as Cuba) supported communist insurgents, but the west did not do the same? Even China supported the same side as South Africa during the war – because they had a problem with the spread of Soviet influence.

But you like to dumb down everything into neat little sentences, bring up obscure facts and hypocritically judge countries such as Israel by different standards than its neighbours.

I never really understood anti-Israel zealots such as you. It seems often that it is some radically left ideology mixed with a healthy dose of anti-semitism.

> In fact I think I'll stop replying to you henceforth.

I would appreciate that! Also, take your tripe anti-Semitic tripe back to reddit.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#162

Post by azernik »

orbitingpluto wrote: post #95
mark_l_watson wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After years on HN, I am going to post my first negative response to someone's comment, yours! The Israeli government's actions in this and many other acts are completely immoral. Your 1) point may have some logical validity in general, but for the good of the Israeli and Palestinian people, the whole world needs to get behind slamming down on the actions of the Israeli government, which also I believe also will hurt…

Please re-read what I wrote and clarify that you read what you think you read. The nature of the opinions I voiced here are pretty much Chomskian in nature. If you're picking a fight with that spectrum of opinion with respect to Israel and Palestine as being to pro-Israeli, then I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you actually just misinterpreted what I said. Easy enough to do as it is an e…

> I really believe that Israel has been moving in the wrong direction.

I agree with everything you wrote but this. Twenty years ago, the great peacemaker Yitzhak Rabin (Z"L) wouldn't have been willing to think, let alone say, that the Palestinians actually deserved a real-life independent state, rather than some little dependency/colony of Israel. Now even people on the right have to pay lip service to the idea of an independent Palestinian state.

There have been a lot of quite dangerous panic reactions to this in certain segments of the right wing, but I think long-term Israeli politics is inching ever so slowly towards more reasonable positions.

(And... off-topic it goes again. Ugh.)

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#163

Post by fredsters_s »

berntb wrote: post #106
ucee054 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M&S hawks Israeli produce: http://www.boycott-israel.co.uk/business-links/133-marks-and... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marks_%26_Spencer#cite_note-53 Unfortunately I can't refer you to a comprehensive information source on companies supporting Israel, but you might find more information by googling for "jews for boycotting israeli goods" or "boycott divestment sanctions" I did find references to several other compan…

Sigh... I flagged the article. Please keep stories like this off HN, it is bad enough with the language wars people. (I follow the Middle East conflict a bit, because it is informative to compare my Swedish media with BBC/NY Times. News items such as Pallywood or torture between Palestinian groups are literally censored.) The basic reason I started to care a bit is because I find it depressing when people hate and de…

I find it depressing when people hate and demonize a whole democracy with very heterogeneous political life

...

these people of the Arab world's

wait - wut?

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#164

Post by imran786 »

coolestuk wrote: post #125
imran786 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sevres was, like Versailles, the final treaty imposed on the losers by the victors. The INHABITANTS OF PALESTINE were not party to it. The Balfour Declaration was one of the most blatent acts of perfidy and outright dishonest double-crossing in modern history. At the SAME TIME that the British promised that they would uphold the rights of Arabs to self-determination - in return for the Arabs fighting (and defeating)…

Where did the "Palestinian arabs" come from? Arabia. What is their language? Arabic. What were they doing outside Arabia? Like the muslim conquest of north Africa, Spain, Persia, India, etc., the area of Palestine was taken by violent conquest. If Arabs had a right to be in Palestine by virtue of conquest, then Britain had the right (again by virtue of conquest) to do what it liked with the land. Why is it there is o…

You really don't have a clue, do you? You're spreading complete nonsense out of total ignorance (akin to bigots trying to argue that "Palestinians" don't even exist).

For the benefit of others who might have had the misfortune of reading the above (you're too far gone to matter):

The Middle East has had civilisation for millenia (spelling?) before Europe had. Consequently, there have been a multitude of different ethnic groups/tribes/peoples who have held sway over one part or another. Hundreds upon hundreds of states & kingdoms, which were themselves swallowed up by one empire after another.

Today, you look upon the Middle East and see just one thing, Arabic speaking Muslims - and you blithely assume that they all came from Arabia.

Completely ignorant and false.

The final "civilisation" or movement (not sure what the right term would be here) which held dominated the Middle East was Islam. And it stayed, unlike all the others.

Most Middle Easterner's today are Muslim, and speak Arabic. But they are still descended from Phoenicians, Libyans, Egyptians, countless migrant tribes (many of whom are collectively labeled under "Bedouin"), Hebrews (yes - the Romans didn't ethnically cleanse the entire population!), Nestorian Christians, etc, etc.

The people never disappeared. They just now speak one tongue, and practice (mostly) one faith. Thats why we know mostly refer to them as "the Arabs".

Trying to pretend that they don't exist, or somehow became extinct, is ridiculous.

Where did the "Palestinian Arabs" come from? PALESTINE. Thats where.

What you'r saying is akin to fast-forwarding past centuries of continued European integration, and then saying that the people living in what used to be called France no longer have any right to that land, because they are part of a wider European state and they all speak Esperanto.

Anyone who would like to read a somewhat more balanced account of the origins of the "Arabs" would be well advised to read "History of the Arabs" by Philip Hitti.

And as for this gem:

"At least the Jews did not go into Palestine with weaponry and enslave ..."

(shaking my head) Is it possible for anyone who has not lived under a rock for half a century to write that claptrap?

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#165

Post by batista »

berntb wrote: post #139
batista wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you really want to discuss the "worse" part, why should the Israeli question be treated differently than all other land areas? This is a wrong framing of the question. I don't think anyone wants to treat it differently than all other land areas in similar circumstances. ALL of those are wrong. Now, mention any other specific "land area" similar, and we can talk. But if you insist, I can think of some reasons t…

>>Now, mention any other specific "land area" similar, and we can talk. I did. See Karelia above. Or choose a few others of the dozen (more?) of land area changes after the WWs. So a country should be hated and double standards are ok, if some west countries accept it more than brutal dictatorships!? Sigh... And sure, the othodox jews have extreme subgroups that are as crazy as e.g. the Saudi government. But what the…

> I did. See Karelia above.

Karelia? You think this bears any resemblance to the Palestinian situation?!!! I'm not at all for countries annexing other countries territory and moving their borders. But the situation here is worse than most other cases -- and sure as hell not at all similar to Karelia.

Here's a better example: consider Mexico demanding California back, establishing a state there, treating Californian's as second class citizens, and confining them in small areas north of Sacramento.

(Well, the difference would be that Mexico had California a couple of centuries ago, not a couple of millennia. And immigrants from there already consist of 30% of the population of the state. So, in that case, they'd have a slight right to want it back).

>And sure, the othodox jews have extreme subgroups that are as crazy as e.g. the Saudi government. But what the Hell does that prove? You know full well that you can find similar in any democracy.

Segregated women/men bus lines? No, you cannot find this kind of crazy sh*t in any normal democracy, especially in Western Europe. You might find religious nuts being able to impose such rules inside their churches, monasteries or homes or clubs. Which is kinda OK. But on a bus line??? In public roads?

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#166

Post by berntb »

fredsters_s wrote: post #163
berntb wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh... I flagged the article. Please keep stories like this off HN, it is bad enough with the language wars people. (I follow the Middle East conflict a bit, because it is informative to compare my Swedish media with BBC/NY Times. News items such as Pallywood or torture between Palestinian groups are literally censored.) The basic reason I started to care a bit is because I find it depressing when people hate and de…

I find it depressing when people hate and demonize a whole democracy with very heterogeneous political life ... these people of the Arab world's wait - wut?

Add a "," if you fail to parse. "... from these people, of the Arab world's way of destroying the Palestinian refugees' lives, by refusing to integrate them."

Which you certainly realized, fredster_s (in your 4th comment.)

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#167

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #147
berntb wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh... I flagged the article. Please keep stories like this off HN, it is bad enough with the language wars people. (I follow the Middle East conflict a bit, because it is informative to compare my Swedish media with BBC/NY Times. News items such as Pallywood or torture between Palestinian groups are literally censored.) The basic reason I started to care a bit is because I find it depressing when people hate and de…

berntb have a look at http://mondoweiss.net It is liberal jewish website that criticizes the Sudanese genocide and the treatment of Palestinian refugees by the arab world, seeing as you don't get enough of that from the Swedish media. (Links http://mondoweiss.net/2012/02/the-palestinian-refugees-of-le... http://mondoweiss.net/2008/07/darfur-part-2-lets-get-to-know... ) Mondoweiss however don't use these stories to co…

Good arguments against me claiming all critics of Israel copy and paste from the Zion protocols and that no criticism is possible.

Oh wait, I never said that...

I'm not surprised by your choice of black/white straw man to "argue" against...

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#168

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #156
berntb wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have nothing to say about that the Arab countries destroy Palestinians' lives more than Israel ever did? Or my other points re double standards? >>You insinuated that my discussion of Hasbara means that I am some kind of "disgusting" Nazi referencing "traditional anti semitic hate propaganda", when I was linking to the Israeli Citizens Information Council's own website. You wrote that you thought the Jews control…

> You wrote that you thought the Jews controlled the information in the US media... That is less than one step from the Zion protocols, quoted in the Hamas charter etc. This is not quite what I wrote, but whatever. Even if it were, it's not just the Okhrana, the Nazis and Hamas who say stuff like this either, it is also Zionist lobbyist Haim Saban (Link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/05/10/100510fa_fact_...…

There are lobby groups in the media for every interest group. You argue that the jews control the media with very little support and ignore that it is a carbon copy of racist hate propaganda.

You guys also wear white capes?

>>The Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians caused the refugee problem in the first place

You handpick facts and twist them. Some points:

1. There were lots of refugee problems in both world wars, many worse than Palestine. This is the only case were the suffering was made permanent for generations, just to be able to keep up the hate. It is just disgusting that you blame others for what the Arab states did differently than the rest of the world.

2. There were more people thrown out from the muslim world just for being jews than Palestinians that fled in the middle of a civil war. Then there were jews from the West Bank that fled 1948-1949. Why do you guys never mention them?

3. Argh, enough.

You don't argue, you write one eyed hateful propaganda. I stopped reading.

This is the result of letting this subject onto HN. The language wars trolls are bad as it is.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#169

Post by berntb »

ucee054 wrote: post #156
berntb wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have nothing to say about that the Arab countries destroy Palestinians' lives more than Israel ever did? Or my other points re double standards? >>You insinuated that my discussion of Hasbara means that I am some kind of "disgusting" Nazi referencing "traditional anti semitic hate propaganda", when I was linking to the Israeli Citizens Information Council's own website. You wrote that you thought the Jews control…

> You wrote that you thought the Jews controlled the information in the US media... That is less than one step from the Zion protocols, quoted in the Hamas charter etc. This is not quite what I wrote, but whatever. Even if it were, it's not just the Okhrana, the Nazis and Hamas who say stuff like this either, it is also Zionist lobbyist Haim Saban (Link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/05/10/100510fa_fact_...…

>>Israeli Tshirts depict

And you judge a democracy because some T-shirts some people wear?! I really wish you are a troll...

Seriously, don't you have less ridiculous and less braindead attempts at arguments? Is this REALLY the best you have?!

Edit: So if you went to e.g. Spain and ended up at a metal gig, you'd judge all Spanish people as satanists... :-)

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#170

Post by berntb »

batista wrote: post #165
berntb wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Now, mention any other specific "land area" similar, and we can talk. I did. See Karelia above. Or choose a few others of the dozen (more?) of land area changes after the WWs. So a country should be hated and double standards are ok, if some west countries accept it more than brutal dictatorships!? Sigh... And sure, the othodox jews have extreme subgroups that are as crazy as e.g. the Saudi government. But what the…

> I did. See Karelia above. Karelia? You think this bears any resemblance to the Palestinian situation?!!! I'm not at all for countries annexing other countries territory and moving their borders. But the situation here is worse than most other cases -- and sure as hell not at all similar to Karelia. Here's a better example: consider Mexico demanding California back, establishing a state there, treating Californian's…

At least you dropped the "point" that it is OK to hate countries which are tolerated more by the Western world than disgusting dictatorships...

>>Karelia? You think this bears any resemblance to the Palestinian situation

You ignored my point again, but I think you know that.

Both cases were area losses where part of the population left. If anything Karelia was much more unfair.

That it looks very different now, compared to all the other land losses from the same time period, depends probably mostly on the Palestinian suffering made permant -- by the Arab states.

>>Segregated women/men bus lines? No, you cannot find this kind of crazy sh*t in any normal democracy

You mean it is different in your home and in your bus?

Amish do more extreme things, imho.

Also, how is it in France in those immigrant areas where the police are very careful to thread?

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