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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

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Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#161

Post by bombcar »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #126
Buttons840 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A closely related question is: Should playing the fun way, and playing the optimal way be the same thing? I used to think think the answer was yes, but Spelunky 2 made me doubt; in Spelunky using a bomb or a rope is rarely optimal, but it can make things simpler and more fun. I think it's a well designed game, so the fact that optimal play and fun play are different is making me think.

It took me a decade to realize my best friend and I play friendly games differently. It was most obvious in magic the gathering - he would consistently optimize the same deck week after week, whereas I'd be bringing new decks with new and fairly general mechanics all the time. Similarly, he only ever played one character in smash bros or overwatch whereas I would heavily rotate. Ultimately his goal was win percentage…

Sounds like he was a Spike and you were more of a Johnny or a Timmy: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/timmy-johnny-...

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#162

Post by poulsbohemian »

kodt wrote: post #88
soldarnal wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game clock is one of the more common rules that tends to warp gameplay in this way, with teams that are ahead trying to avoid play and run out the clock rather than continue to engage in the contest. The other team, meanwhile, resorts to increasingly desperate tactics like pulling the goalie, intentionally committing fouls, or laterals and trying for the onside kick. Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam_En…

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

That's true for the team that's leading, but the other side of this is that if the team that's behind has the ball, they have the perverse incentive to draw a pass interference call even more than make a clean play, due to PI rules being so soft and in favor of the offense. Maybe not as much of a foregone conclusion as a kneel-down, but definitely the past few seasons it has begun to feel like the offense has a notable advantage.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#163

Post by charlieyu1 »

WorldMaker wrote: post #82
PaulHoule wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frequently I get a bunch of free Giants gear around November because my friends who are Giants fans are disgusted with how they are playing and don't want to be seen in them. If the NFL had relegation this couldn't happen so chronically. On the other hand, promotion/relegation needs a big enough market to support multiple tiers. Amazingly, the UK has several layers of leagues that attract fans and seem to be economic…

The US has second, third, and fourth tier leagues already, though those are all part of USL rather than MLS. MLS has a lot more money than USL and isn't interested in promotion/relegation concepts because it is built like MLB/NBA and likes the gatekeeping aspects of those because that influences investment money and helps keep MLS comparatively rich. But USL thinks promotion/relegation could work in the US, they just…

American sports have very strange rules compared to most of the world. Salary caps, drafts, players are signed to the league rather than clubs, franchising ownership.

The results are that there isn't much room to grow the sports. Youth development also suffers, teams have no incentive to develop youth talent, and youth teams are generally pay-to-play, meaning it is hard for the poor to join.

I guess if the sports is not popular in US, this may be the only way of survival though

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#164

Post by poulsbohemian »

freetime2 wrote: post #106
kodt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end of American Football games is so frustrating because of this, with a team just constantly taking a knee to run out the clock. It makes the last 2 minutes of the game useless. Constant fouls in Basketball hoping the opposing team will miss a free throw is another frustrating tactic that drags the last 2 minutes on forever, in what is usually a forgone conclusion anyway.

I find clock management to be an interesting aspect of the game in American Football, because literally every second counts. It's one of the things that separates elite players and coaches from everyone else. Tom Brady, for example, was renowned for his ability to move the ball down the field and score in the last two minutes of a game. Sure sometimes it means the game is effectively over 2 minutes early if the leadi…

>And the rare games that end with 0 seconds on the clock on a game winning touchdown or field goal are truly memorable.

Doesn't feel rare anymore, and I'd argue it's a manufactured phenomenon. Weather plays almost no role in games any longer, with the majority of stadiums indoors and played on perfectly consistent synthetic grass. The game has tilted notably in favor of the offense, with roughing the passer, pass interference, spearing, and other calls more strongly enforced or heightened in the same of player safety. To be clear I'm not arguing against player safety, but it has become almost impossible to sack a quarterback without drawing a penalty. Given these rules, the strategy becomes to keep the score close and use the clock to win the game in the last two minutes. Sure, it leads to the excitement of the last second win / loss, but when that becomes an almost pre-ordained scenario (barring the case of an overwhelming disparity in skills of the two teams), then it really isn't exciting anymore.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#165

Post by ctchocula »

CocaKoala wrote: post #57
haunter wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing would make attacking the keeper pointless for example when they dropped the ball from hand for a kickoff, cause that would be offside which is not true. By your description Mandzukic's WC final goal should be offside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzN-ahqULc4

Ball is rolling towards the goal - if the attacking player touches it, it will be offsides: A player in an offside position has entered active play by "interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate". Goalkeeper makes a save, since the ball is rolling towards the goal. If the attacking player touches it, it will be offsides: A player in an offside position has entered active play…

Sure, but that doesn't apply here. If you watch the video, the defender passes back to the goalkeeper. Backpasses by the defending team that are intercepted by the attacking player (even if they are in an offside position) are not considered offside, regardless of whether the attacker touches the ball first or the goalkeeper. From your link, this is the pertinent line:

"A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

...

gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:

  - rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent

  - been deliberately saved by any opponent
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#166

Post by erhaetherth »

chongli wrote: post #153
Kuiper wrote: post #121

This brings to mind one of my favorite TV shows, One Outs. It's about the strategies that a clever and "unsportsmanlike" player brings to a baseball team, exploiting the rules while violating the spirit of the game. As one example: in order for a baseball game to be considered valid, both teams must play 5 innings. If the weather is bad and teams are unable to continue due to rain, a wants their runners to be declare…

MLB has added a pitch clock to speed up games. 30 seconds between batters, 15 seconds between pitches with the bases empty, 20 seconds with runners on. This has sped up games by an average of 26 minutes!

Seems quite logical. I break out the egg-timer in board games when people are dilly-dallying.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#167

Post by alkonaut »

pcchristie wrote: post #154
kevinmchugh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relegation and promotion are just such good systems that all sports should have them

Realistically, you can't run a draft/salary cap with promotion/relegation though, and I think those systems are better at ensuring equalisation. In Europe, the Premier League is the "best" competition because realistically 5 teams have a chance of ever winning the league. In other leagues like France, Italy and Spain, they are duopolies (at best).

Yeah, so (almost) every league in the world has chosen the chance of promotion over artificial equality. But this isn't really a "choice" because the league isn't (just) a business and the teams aren't "franchises" they are clubs. Half the point of having a well-functioning club is having a good youth org/academy which might give you a cheaper way of getting talent than having to sign it at market value.

I'd much rather watch my team finish in the middle of the French League every year of my entire life without any realistic chance of winning than watch a closed league with artificial balancing.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#168

Post by alkonaut »

gfunk911 wrote: post #33

In the NHL, you get 2 points for winning, 0 points for losing in regulation, and 1 point for losing in overtime. The obvious result (to everyone but the creators of the rule I guess) is that, if a game is tied near the end of regulation, it is best for both sides if the game goes to overtime. There are 2 points available for a game decided in regulation, but 3 if decided in overtime. I assume both teams would sit qui…

Is there a reason for this difference compared to hockey everywhere else? As far as I'm aware both IIHF and most leagues do 3 points which are either split 3/0 or 2/1, withe same 5minute 3v3 followed by shootout as the NHL does. The only difference being the 2pt win thing which is really odd if you ask me. The idea that a fixed number of points exists (3 multiplied by the number of games played) in the table regardless of outcomes feels natural.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#169

Post by alkonaut »

hn2017 wrote: post #4

Wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbados_4%E2%80%932_Grenada https://bleacherreport.com/articles/74831-barbados-vs-grenad... Note this isn't possible in today's rules, afaik

I think it's safe to say that there will never again be a high level competition where overtime goals count double.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#170

Post by divan »

sbierwagen wrote: post #130
divan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Do you have any good recommendations to read on this matter? Here are a couple of good papers on how metrics distort systems and what can be done to mitigate this. [1] [2]. And then a new post by Cedric Chin on practical examples of mitigating Goodhart's law in Amazon. Really good read: [3] But generally, I feel like not many people or organizations care about this. The non-profit sports world is conservative…

Spiritually related: examples of RL algorithms exploiting glitches in the physics engine (clipping into the ground to shoot forward at incredible speed) or gaming the goal state: (Agent that's supposed to learn how to walk instead evolving a body with a single long leg that just falls forward-- getting a high speed score with low complexity penalty) https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03453 https://www.deepmind.com/blog/speci…

Great work, thank you for sharing!
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