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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

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Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#161

Post by tialaramex »

chippiewill wrote: post #88
throwawaymaths wrote: post #6

> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.

It's not that unusual. Herb Sutter's 2022 CppCon keynote was on a prototype redesign of the C++ syntax/language.

That's even one of a long series of such talks Herb has given, about features Herb thinks C++ should have, but it doesn't, and in all but one case those proposals Herb made were not adopted in the C++ standard.

If your language isn't intending to just remain stuck forever in its current state, a conference is a reasonable place to explain a proposed direction so that other people know where you think it should go. Not every talk has to be speculative, but a speculative keynote seems fine to me so long as it's obvious that we're not in an alternate dimension where this works in Rust already, which I see no sign JeanHyde was intending.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#162

Post by gishbunker »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #6

> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.

If someone is in the minority, it's totally reasonable to ask, "could their minority status be a factor in their disenfranchisement?"

Then you look at the data, and in this case come to the conclusion, "no, it was not a factor."

That seems healthy and normal, it's not outrage bait to acknowledge that yes, sometimes minorities are at a disadvantage or are under represented.

It's just as fallacious to say "of course race was a factor" as it is to say "of course race was not a factor". Much better to ask openly, evaluate the data, and make an informed conclusion.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#163

Post by meindnoch »

conradludgate wrote: post #150
meindnoch wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I'm not sure I follow you. As far as I can tell, this "Asahi Lina" is a cartoon figure, that's used for lip-syncing with a voice effect. Are you saying the real person behind the cartoon is also called "Asahi Lina"?

Asahi Lina is who they identify as. It is likely a pseudonym but I see no source for any other name. So I have no reason to believe it's Hector. I would rather not make assumptions about someone beyond what they present themselves as, so as far as I'm concerned, they are Asahi Lina She/Her

Ok, but we can still make an educated guess on who's behind the fictional cartoon character...

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#164

Post by ra1231963 »

hotfixguru wrote: post #136
kristoff_it wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also like just read the original blog post on stream, said a couple of things about it, mentioned that it's not good that this stuff is happening and moved on. Honestly I don't really see much milking there.

Yeah, seems a bit weird for me to see that there. I like both of these guys, but Primeagen seems to be attacked a bit out of the blue here. He’s reacting to this just like he’s reacting to literally anything else on his channel. I also don’t think it’s been anything too bad, he’s said his opinion, just like the rest. He reacts to it with energy (and in an entertaining way, imo), and it’s impossible for him to not add…

Agreed, and to add on to what you said - this whole thing is confusing so he is actually doing a service of trying to summarize all the context for people who don’t want to go reading a bunch of random articles or tweets.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#165

Post by beezlewax »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #113
meindnoch wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.

The Rust community I’m familiar with is basically like any other group of programming enthusiasts who want to talk about and work with a language. Whatever is going on in Twitter land and with the drama around conferences and boards is a different world, but they aren’t necessarily one and the same.

I'm glad you stated this.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#166

Post by tialaramex »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #153
chippiewill wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that unusual. Herb Sutter's 2022 CppCon keynote was on a prototype redesign of the C++ syntax/language.

Cool, thanks to know there was precedence. I've never seen one, but to be fair I don't have a comprehensive experience seeing every keynote :) My general feeling is that keynotes are for "setting the tone" of the conference/conference day.

Bigger conferences tend to put two particular keynote talks in. Something for people to discuss among themselves over the course of the conference, and then something to take away afterwards.

I watch a lot of conference videos, but I don't attend many conferences, I don't get value out of the so-called "Hallway track" and I dislike commercial air travel which limits where I could go anyway. I like where I live, that's why I bought it, so remaining here is great.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#167

Post by gishbunker »

CrazyStat wrote: post #138
armchairhacker wrote: post #56

I think this Rust drama is way over-exaggerated. One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn't be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider "keynote downgraded to regular presentation" don't seem like much). And now multiple people are leaving the Rust team, and some random commentators are "disgraced" by the Rust Project, and "threatening" to stop us…

> One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn't be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider "keynote downgraded to regular presentation" don't seem like much). One person should not have been able to reverse the decision that was made by a collective leadership vote. The fact that was allowed to happen is a failure of governance. One of the people wh…

It's a bug. Bugs happen. Systems are still systems whether they deal with people or code.

When big bugs happen, we evaluate why, and improve the system so it performs better next time. We don't blame people, we focus on what allowed people to make bad decisions. In this case, it sounds like a bad decision making process that needs a patch.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#170

Post by krainboltgreene »

rustthrow wrote: post #3

> The recent incident with ThePHD’s keynote downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully, but… if that’s what it looks like from the outside, and any form of official communication is still days or weeks away, does it really make a difference? yes! it does! we can't keep framing everything as race, gender, or orientation related. people have to have basic filters for what the most important issue is in a situatio…

> we can't keep framing everything as race, gender, or orientation related.

No one is doing this, problem solved.

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