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Where have all the hackers gone?

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161–170 of 351 posts

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. You are absolutely correct. This place is populated with quite a few nerds. Nerds typically have subpar social skills, which is is both fueled by and results in a lack of empathy. >"I ♥ people; look for ways to make them happy, and empower them." The propaganda arm of the Soviets is called "Pravda",…

It’s why nerds hate MBA-types. They see little value in understanding and engaging with the qualitative side of being human.

Are you kidding me? "MBA-types" have the same problem. How many frausdsters in prison have an MBA? It's a lot.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#162
post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

I think the hacker culture of the ‘90s to early ‘00s is behind us, and it really saddens me. I’ve yet to find a corner of the current tech / startup landscape that ignites the same excitement I felt over a decade ago. It’s too commercial now.

Part of it is that the systems got really complicated, and a complicated system encourages standardization, not specialization.

When computers were small, dumb, and did very little on their own, creative integration of heterogeneous pieces was rewarded and rewarding. Computers are now large, complicated, distributed, and part of a whole ecosystem. The kind of "hacker-shaped" grit that makes someone do something neat gluing a telephone receiver to a TV tuner? Well that's a fun Adafruit demo, but you could have done it easier and faster on a Raspberry Pi, and hell, there's already the scragglypete/tv-phoner repo that you really should have used (if you'd done a bit of research before you whipped out the glue gun, you'd have found the StackOverflow post from three months ago where someone went "Hey, I want to glue my telephone receiver to my TV tuner" and they were directed to that project). And while we're on the subject, that's not nearly as useful as the telephone-receiver-glued-to-a-tv-tuner emulator in this Docker container, because it does exactly what your workbench solution does but you can deploy eighty of them in one minute with a few shell commands and some money thrown at AWS...

Hacking is less cowboy-shaped for the same reason there are fewer cowboys... Eventually, the pioneer towns give way to the skyscrapers and city streets because once the wilderness is tamed, the city is way more powerful, comfortable, and productive than the cowboy life.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#163

Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. He talks about a "friend" and then proceeds to say things like "To be honest, I suspect he didn't know or think much about them" or "This was not a fruitful conversation". How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this? Is it a cultur…

>Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. You are absolutely correct. This place is populated with quite a few nerds. Nerds typically have subpar social skills, which is is both fueled by and results in a lack of empathy. >"I ♥ people; look for ways to make them happy, and empower them." The propaganda arm of the Soviets is called "Pravda",…

I get what you're saying, but I think the "nerds typically have subpar social skills" meme is often used as an excuse for behaviour that shouldn't be acceptable anywhere. I'm not even sure it's that true. Most of the more capable people I've worked with have been very emotionally intelligent, and I don't think I've ever found nerdy behaviour to be a useful judge of genuine skill or interest in a subject.

But in a reply to your comment there's already someone talking about nerds not getting on with "MBA types", like this is some American high school film and not real life...

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish I was so brimming with self-confidence as to say that I'm just as competent as the guy who founded the eighth or so most valuable company on Earth, and he was just in the right place at the right time. Zuckerberg is clearly a not-great guy in some ways, but the reason we're all posting on Hacker News during the workday and he's running a centibillion dollar company is because he's an immensely intellige…

I with I was as starry-eyed as to think he did it because of his "hacker skills"... > the reason we're all posting on Hacker News during the workday and he's running a centibillion dollar company is because he's an immensely intelligent and talented and focused man and we are... well, the kind of people who post on internet forums during the workday. There are people who post regularly in HN (even in the top-50 contr…

so in the original context of my post... Zuckerberg : Harvard :: hacker : software industry. it's an analogy. I wasn't saying he's a great hacker.

But also the dude obviously is a great hacker. There are vanishingly few people who can bootstrap the infrastructure that will let a company grow to Facebook scale -- you need exceptional depth and breadth of computer knowledge, as well as great focus and an ability to prioritize and satisfice.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'd still be there Unfortunately. Not sure the concentration of Zuckerbergs and the concentration of hackers is particularly related, except maybe the latter attracts the former. Zuckerberg's no genius, he was in the right place at the right time near the right people. He's competent, but no more than most of the people here. His morals (or the flexibility thereof) were what made him rich.

I really wish I was so brimming with self-confidence as to say that I'm just as competent as the guy who founded the eighth or so most valuable company on Earth, and he was just in the right place at the right time. Zuckerberg is clearly a not-great guy in some ways, but the reason we're all posting on Hacker News during the workday and he's running a centibillion dollar company is because he's an immensely intellige…

Six hectobillion dollar company

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#166
post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

> I think the reason, plain and simple, is that most developers aren't really in it for the passion anymore, but rather the money.

Anecdata:

I had a job recently that paid competitively, but the boss soon replaced interesting work with boring work (for me: writing boilerplate that's already been solved a thousand times over, or any FE work), so my passion petered out, which was quite obvious to everyone involved, so the relationship ended.

However, I'm with a client now, and we're building something really cool (using LLMs; I get access to H100 soon; etc) and I'm working every spare minute I can get away with, without being paid for overtime.

I feel like a "hacker" again with this role, learning new things, stretching the capabilities of the system given various constraints, and every second link I open in my browser is arxiv.

(That said, I grew up in South Africa, where cyber laws lagged behind the world's for a good few years, so we knew every trick in the book, yet were untouchable, haha!)

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#167
post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

Exactly this. No one cares anymore, they just want $$$

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#168
It seems the author is lamenting that most people are no longer interested in their preferred level of abstraction, and have instead focused on higher abstraction levels that are less interesting to them. Which is fine, it just means they haven't found "their people" yet.

The few meetups I go to, I've also noticed that 90% of conversations stay at surface level, the folks who prefer to go deeper were always rare, its likely that in the past, meetups tended to attract that small percentage in the first place, so there's some selection bias.

In terms of language-level specifics, I will say that in 12 years of experience I have rarely ran into a problem where "soil"-level properties of a language actually made a difference. I'm not building systems-level stuff or libraries, I'm building apps and services for businesses, where IMO the surface or atmosphere-level issues are more important. It doesn't matter that Python is 1000x "slower" than some other language, up to a certain scale. It matters more that I have access to Python's ecosystem, or there are specifics in how a python app is structured that I just happen to prefer because I'm comfortable with it. This is just an example.

The other issue is that most applications we write are going to fall into a handful of categories. The needs of a locally-run stateful application are going to be different from the needs of a stateless web application. For web apps, your bottleneck is rarely in the language runtime, and more in your application design, database, infrastructure, etc.

Language-level enthusiasts (which is how I would describe the author) are incredibly valuable members of the community, but its not the only game in town. There are so many other dimensions to measure technology, and so many other fields to be a "hacker" in. So why do "innovation tokens" need to be spent on the language runtime?

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#169
Pretentiousness and fluff of the post aside, there are some interesting points, like: businesses just want to be riskless rent collectors, so they do Whatever Other Businesses are Doing, which is a major contributor to the decline of this "hacker culture"; there's also this "neutering" aspect of today's conversations in your typical corporate environment, where you are only allowed to be "polite", "positive", and "constructive", even if the subject is barely worth talking about at all.

Oh, and the thing about Authoritative Calm Professional Voice is spot-on.

The opening, I'll concede, is fluff that could have been edited out, but there it is.

There is also, for some reason, this subculture inhabiting HN which, if some project is not aiming to become the next multibillion unicorn, scale out hugely, dares not be a product, or someone open-sources his work without a particular desire to bring in a "team" or a "community", starts deriding and piling on the author, because in its opinion, such things (and maybe such people) simply should not exist. This subculture is a huge deterrent for anything tinkering-related that is not aiming at, you know, Changing the World or whatever it is these days.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#170
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah-- that's always been the case in more technical crowds from my experience. I switched to HN from Slashdot like a decade ago because the Slashdot crowd seemed to get overrun with folks like that. Recently, I most frequently notice it when people discuss potential job losses from AI automation. Regardless of whether or not this is good for society, it's absolutely bizarre how many folks around here (and some other…

It's been my experience that in conversations about AI, literally nobody actually wants empathy. People want to talk about empathy and deplore the people they disagree with as lacking it. The underlying assumption and implication is that a person experiencing genuine empathy would both display it in some legible manner and agree with the speaker's positions on things. In short, the idea of empathy is weaponized. Perh…

a) I was responding to an admittedly off-topic comment, and not the article.

b) Your argument that people solely use empathy as a kudgel to get their way is not reflected in reality. What you describe is emotional manipulation, and as far as I can tell, you're essentially arguing that all calls for empathy in conversation are emotional manipulation... which is ridiculous.

c) Simply speaking about people respectfully is actually important and doesn't change the concrete components of a conversation. Discussing whether or not there should be some concrete action in response to a bunch of people losing their livelihood doesn't benefit from "lol get a new career, idiot." If you don't understand that, you've probably got a serious problem understanding the effect your words have on other people.

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