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The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

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Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#161

Post by renjimen »

soulofmischief wrote: post #46
cmilton wrote: post #42

Why do we assume evil? How do our unfounded decisions today affect the possibilities of progress? How easy will it be to repeal these laws when we find the harm they may cause? I would prefer to wait and see.

In the current climate, and generally, you should distrust your government on a systematic level, and take pride in doing so. They certainly distrust you.

That’s a wildly sweeping statement. I am assuming you don’t live in a functioning social democracy. You should try it some time, it might restore your faith in the ability of centralised power to improve the lives of its citizens

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#162

Post by andybak »

tpxl wrote: post #152
andybak wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like (yet another) extension of copyright. Whilst I'm not sure I completely disagree with you, I want people to acknowledge that copyright is not the natural state of the universe. Prior to (I think) 1790 there was no copyright and human beings managed minor things like, you know, the renaissance and stuff like that. Copyright was invented and enforced and the results have been a mixed bag. It seems to suf…

If creating LLMs based on copyrighted data is found to be legal, all that will do is allow giant companies to sell copyrighted work without crediting the original authors, while leaving everyone else in the dirt.

> all that will do is allow giant companies to sell copyrighted work without crediting the original authors, while leaving everyone else in the dirt.

I'm not sure I follow. But even accepting your premise - I'm not sure how it will favour giant companies over anyone else. The models are already in the wild and anyone can use them. In some ways - large companies are less likely to do anything that might open them up to legal risks or PR downsides.

Maybe this is more of a Napster moment than it is a big tech powergrab?

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#163

Post by AbrahamParangi »

renjimen wrote: post #128
endisneigh wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people compare software regulation to the regulation of physical things that do obvious harm like food regulations.

But software can do obvious harm. This is surely one the most important lessons of the internet era

Yeah it really can’t though. If there’s mercury in the tuna that’s obviously and unequivocally bad. If there’s funny memes supporting the other political party that’s supposed to be equivalent?

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#164

Post by Taywee »

endisneigh wrote: post #151
Taywee wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace "software" with "guns" in your post and it's the same effect.

Sure. There are people who think guns are harmless and do not need to be regulated. There are those who do. At the end of the day guns do not shoot people on their own, though.

Yes, but gun regulations don't operate under the assumption that guns shoot people on their own. They operate under the understanding that people who do damage can do much more damage with guns than without.

Pretending that any of the regulation of guns or AI is done with the understanding that they are anything other than powerful tools that can be used by humans to do profound damage is a strawman argument. We all understand that guns don't shoot people on their own. Don't oppose regulation by characterizing the opposing viewpoint as something it isn't.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#165

Post by golemotron »

scrollaway wrote: post #93
golemotron wrote: post #28

I'm not sure the EU is powerful enough to have their way on AI, USB-C, GDPR and a handful of other things. With a population aging faster than the US's it seems like they are spiraling into irrelevance. It could be a market served only by corporations that are willing prop up old tech.

“The eu is spiralling into irrelevance” is up there with “the internet is a fad” and “ai is useless” in the list of absurd sentences to say out loud so nobody takes you seriously ever again.

Get back to me in 20 years.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#167

Post by DicIfTEx »

endisneigh wrote: post #136
braveyellowtoad wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please clarify: is your position that software is not capable of doing harm?

Yes, most software is harmless. There are some scenarios where it could do harm, but ultimately said harm was the product of human usage of the software, not software inherently. There are a few examples such as medical device software and things like train software where honest mistakes can result in human harm. However even with those the issue was that humans made the mistakes. Software development as a discipline…

I don't think you need counterexamples, because your base argument is faulty. Food full of formaldyhde only causes harm as the product of human usage, i.e. someone eating it, regulation aims to make it impossible for such a situation to arise. For a less extreme but no less real example, just look at the regulation of raw milk in much of the world.

Elsewhere in the thread you have touched on firearm regulation; it's worth noting that amongst states with the capacity to do so, it is really only the US that abdicates its responsibility to regulate firearms, with predictably tragic consequences (though, as with everything in the US, that varies state to state etc.)

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#168

Post by endisneigh »

Taywee wrote: post #164
endisneigh wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. There are people who think guns are harmless and do not need to be regulated. There are those who do. At the end of the day guns do not shoot people on their own, though.

Yes, but gun regulations don't operate under the assumption that guns shoot people on their own. They operate under the understanding that people who do damage can do much more damage with guns than without. Pretending that any of the regulation of guns or AI is done with the understanding that they are anything other than powerful tools that can be used by humans to do profound damage is a strawman argument. We all…

I'm well aware of the distinction. I'm simply saying that it is a fact that guns do not shoot people on their own. Some countries regulate differently, obviously. You also seem to think governments, which are made by the said humans that can do "profound damage", are infallible.

At the end of the day you either democratize the access, or you don't. Those who want to break the law will break it either way. All you are going to do is punish those who follow the law by not giving them access.

For what it's worth - I couldn't care less about guns and wouldn't mind their banning. However I trust my government. If you do not, I would not want guns to be banned. But that's the thing - a government I don't trust would not want citizens to have guns to begin with, and thus the dilemma.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#169

Post by Taywee »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #163
renjimen wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But software can do obvious harm. This is surely one the most important lessons of the internet era

Yeah it really can’t though. If there’s mercury in the tuna that’s obviously and unequivocally bad. If there’s funny memes supporting the other political party that’s supposed to be equivalent?

This comment is so disingenuous it's ridiculous. It's like opposing gun regulation with some contrived scenario about water pistols and Nerf guns.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#170

Post by renjimen »

Renaud wrote: post #115
melvinmelih wrote: post #85

There’s a reason why Google didn’t release Bard to EU yesterday, expect that to happen more and more as they fall further and further behind.

It’s ok. Either Google manages to follow these principles, which to me look aligned to their announced intent for more ethical AI use, or they won’t, and that means their product won’t follow the basic ethical guidelines proposed by the EU, in which case, I’d rather it not be available in the EU (and I don’t understand how anyone would defend a company not ready to address these ethical concerns).

Exactly. If they’re not willing to understand and vet their own tech in the face of basic regulation, then no thank you. Sad the US population will once again be guinea pigs for these disruptive technologies
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