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Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

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Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#161

Post by Uehreka »

falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

Ehhh… Sure you won’t convince the person you’re talking too, but it’s often worth it because if you really destroy their argument in a way that’s visible to bystanders, you could quietly convince a lot of them (since they can change their minds quietly without any ego cost).

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#162

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

wongarsu wrote: post #44
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is the search for consensus about predictions. It says nothing of truth.

That's what happens in practice, but the idealized version of science (like if you properly apply the scientific method in your backyard with no outside influence) is an iterative process for getting closer to the truth. Or maybe closer to an accurate model of reality, since "truth" is a bit of a weird concept. Of course the end point ("truth") may be unreachable, and often we get stuck in local maxima until someone…

In practice, some seek truth and others seek a useful story to tell and, conveniently enough, they can pursue the same scientific goals without having to agree on philosophy.

But this frame you've got where truth exists in some kind of metric space... it sounds like metaphysics to me.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#163

Post by lazyasciiart »

eeeoio wrote: post #120
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

[flagged]

What happens when you move out of forensics and start arguing about real life decisions that you’d like to influence? You just give up?

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#164

Post by yarg »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #139
yarg wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would you bother giving input when you don't care if or how it is received? Because the point of the statement is in the consequences that result, not the emotional response elicited? Here's an example, I once worked with an absolutely useless tester, the only tester on my team. Hadn't picked up by month four on the sort of basic shit he should've had on day one. And he never did. I'd been implementing some rat…

If you had cared about the consequences, it might have served everyone better (yourself included) if you’d found a constructive way to discuss concerns you’d had for months, so everyone involved would have a better chance of success. It’s possible you’d done that, but it sounds very much like you just left a situation in a far from ideal state until you chose to categorically write off a whole person who may not have…

It was a frustrated outburst regarding something about which I had repeated (and more discretely) commented.

And there was no constructive way to address the situation where someone simply is not smart enough to learn their required tasks.

Beyond that, just because I can recognise that testing is inadequate, does not mean that I can guide how to do it.

(Just because I can point when a builder puts a hammer through the glass, does not mean that I can fix the window myself.)

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#165

Post by [deleted] »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #119
wongarsu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens in practice, but the idealized version of science (like if you properly apply the scientific method in your backyard with no outside influence) is an iterative process for getting closer to the truth. Or maybe closer to an accurate model of reality, since "truth" is a bit of a weird concept. Of course the end point ("truth") may be unreachable, and often we get stuck in local maxima until someone…

It's... not? It's an iterative process to come to a deeper and more complete understanding of any subject, with the quality of the result being measured by how well predictions based on that understanding correspond to observation. Science does not concern itself with "truth", it leaves that to the philosophers. Instead, it concerns itself with finding models and the (often vast ) set(s) of preconditions that must ho…

[deleted]

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#166

Post by irrational »

doubled112 wrote: post #34
the_snooze wrote: post #5

>Even if my words are accurate, rational, and true, the way I deliver them may color that truth with an entirely different message. A doctor can deliver bad news of a terminal diagnosis with seriousness and sympathy. Or they can just glibly say "Don't bother buying green bananas."

> Don't bother buying green bananas I can't be the only one who thinks this delivery might be hilarious? Of course, I respect and understand that not everybody would find it to be.

My brother was diagnosed with cancer. Almost died on the third chemo treatment so cannot finish the other five treatments. He would think the banana line is hilarious and greatly appreciate it. His wife? Not so much. It really depends on the person.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#167

Post by NateEag »

Uehreka wrote: post #161
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

Ehhh… Sure you won’t convince the person you’re talking too, but it’s often worth it because if you really destroy their argument in a way that’s visible to bystanders, you could quietly convince a lot of them (since they can change their minds quietly without any ego cost).

I think when you "really destroy their argument," the average human bystander thinks "... what a jerk."

If you quietly make a few good points, don't push too hard, and ask sincere questions to help you understand the other person's perspectives, the average human will think "that guy is a class act. He had a good point, too."

Convincing anyone other than a hyper-rationalist of almost anything significant is more about emotions than it is about cold, hard facts.

And most humans, for better or for worse, are emphatically not hyper-rationalists.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#168

Post by BeetleB »

falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against.

But before you do that, examine the context. Would they care to even find out the truth?

In over half the cases, I submit to you that they do not. Assuming that they value the truth as you do makes much of this submission relevant.

Very often, they want to have a conversation, and there are needs behind it - and usually "discover the truth" is not one of them.[1] Trying to guide them towards the path of truth is, simply put, derailing them. That's not the path they seek.

[1] I mean I'm sure it is for me and you, but we are in the minority.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#170

Post by BeetleB »

19h wrote: post #38

This article reeks of weak sauce. Delivering truth in a "sensitive" manner is a sad testament to the frail sensibilities of modern society. If the unvarnished truth bothers you, that says more about your inadequacies than the person speaking it. Hiding behind convoluted psychological constructs like "hyper-rationality" and "super-reasonability" is a coward's way to avoid hard truths and difficult conversations. The t…

> If the unvarnished truth bothers you, that says more about your inadequacies than the person speaking it.

Agreed.

However, insisting that speaking the unvarnished truth is problem free speaks a lot about you as well.

As for the rest of your comment, I agree with dang - you are violently agreeing with the submission. It almost is as if ChatGPT wrote this.

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