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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

cnn.com

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#161

Post by MrJohz »

Karellen wrote: post #137
shivekkhurana wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched a Dr. Huberman podcast on dance and language. One of the key takeaways was that speaking and thinking are interrelated. When you are thinking, the same area of the vocal chords are activated but with a lower intensity compared to when you are speaking. This means that what you cannot speak, you cannot think. By prioritising Italian, they are scientifically enabling the population to think more like Italians…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity (aka Sapir-Whorf hypothesis)

Note that there is a distinction to be made between linguistic determination (language controls how one thinks) and linguistics relativity (language affects how one thinks). The former idea is largely discredited, the latter accepted with lots of caveats.

What the previous poster if describing is a strong, deterministic relationship between language and thought (the idea that, by banning certain uses of language, they can control how Italians think). This is essentially nonsense: Italians are Italian, regardless of whether they work in a company run by a CEO or an "amministratore delegato".

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#162

Post by flandish »

dariosalvi78 wrote: post #77

Yes! I'm looking forward this great return of fascist idiocy, like when Mussolini forbid some foreign words and cocktail became "bevanda arlecchina", sandwich "tramezzino" and parquet "tassellato"... https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/italian-language-and-fasc...

Reminds me of the short lived meme in the early 2000’s era, “freedom fries.”

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#163

Post by seydor »

lm28469 wrote: post #131
seydor wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You probably (99.9% certainty) spend too much time online and not enough time outside. twitter != the real world, tv != the real world

The 'outside world' is worse. Europe is aging, it's looking backwards and has very little interest in the future. The left side of the spectrum is stuck in '70s social democracy and believes it can still work despite the demographic collapse (french protests). It is not forward-looking nor has it made a post-boomer vision. The right is stuck in awe of its old glory and tries to revive nationalism (like Mrs Meloni, Brexit, Orban etc etc). People are (rightly) not very excited by those old minds. There is more interesting stuff happening in the US and Asia

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#164

Post by leonhard »

kuboble wrote: post #83
jsnell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Switzerland demonstrate that?

In German speaking parts of Switzerland people speak Swiss German. The official and written language is high German. Although loosely related, they are two different languages.

Hm I’m not sure this is a good example, it’s really just a dialect. Any German speaker can usually understand most of it when concentrating a bit. And Wikipedia seems to agree. [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_German

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#165

Post by seydor »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #155
seydor wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no 'average european culture' as inter-european differences are bigger than US-europe divide. The US is basically our common cultural base now. > secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. this just goes to show how much attention europeans pay to the US issues instead of our own issues (aging of…

> The US is basically our common cultural base now This is wishful thinking. People pay a lot of attention to the US due to its cultural output and importance in geo-politics but when they open the door they still pay attention to their own locality which has its own context. > At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. I'm sorry, how are those issues not European? Do you think Europeans aren't human or…

> how are those issues not European?

because they are not contested in europe, only in the US

> privacy is a much greater

It's nowhere near as important as housing or employment i think. Strict privacy was mainly championed by German Greens, not a pan-european issue

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#166

Post by mkl95 »

Ironically, Italy's remote work visa has some of the most lax requirements in the world, and speaking Italian isn't one of them.

> While the legislation encompasses all foreign languages, it is particularly geared at “Anglomania” or use of English words, which the draft states “demeans and mortifies” the Italian language, adding that it is even worse because the UK is no longer part of the EU.

This is comically disrespectful towards Ireland.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#167

Post by Aaronmacaron »

alex_suzuki wrote: post #80
truthsayer123 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing you to watch them nor comment on this American forum.

Oddly, I do not consider HN to be an „American forum“ at all. I think of it rather as a global community of nerds of all shades and colors, using the language that is used most widely in technology/engineering/science.

I mean that is a large part of what HN is, but not exclusively. As a non-american I frequently see posts that are obviously only on the front page because most people on this site are from Silicon Valley or USA in general. Some examples:

- San Francisco housing crisis: This has been a frequent topic of discussion on HN but I don't think many people outside of San Francisco, let alone outside of USA care a lot about this

- The collapse of silicon valley bank was a huge topic on HN but it was more or less non-existent in the news in my country

- Posts about US politics, such as anything related to Trump or the American Supreme Court

- When a post is specific to a particular country, it's usually indicated in the title, except in the case of the USA

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#168

Post by samus »

hunglee2 wrote: post #90
pyuser583 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis shi…

yes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'

It's considerably different in Italy since Florence never had any sort of political dominance over Italy. Even though it was very briefly formidable during the Renaissance, its influence has otherwise been mostly cultural only. Because of this, authors and scientists settled on a Koinè based on Florentine during the Renaissance. Until the 19th century, it was barely spoken, even in Tuscany.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#170

Post by detaro »

seydor wrote: post #165
Quarrelsome wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is basically our common cultural base now This is wishful thinking. People pay a lot of attention to the US due to its cultural output and importance in geo-politics but when they open the door they still pay attention to their own locality which has its own context. > At least 4 of those issues are american , not european. I'm sorry, how are those issues not European? Do you think Europeans aren't human or…

> how are those issues not European? because they are not contested in europe, only in the US > privacy is a much greater It's nowhere near as important as housing or employment i think. Strict privacy was mainly championed by German Greens, not a pan-european issue

Sorry, but that's bullshit. Does US discourse have impact on these topics in Europe: sure. But they are not solved topics that wouldn't be contentious otherwise.
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