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Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

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Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#161

The book The Fat of the Land by Vilhjalmur Stefansson ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmur_Stefansson ) describes how the Eskimos he lived with ate rotten fish all the time. It was a delicacy for them. Kind of like we eat "rotten/spoiled" blue cheese and dry-aged beef.

Not just fish and not just Eskimo. Northern tribes rot whole deer, seal and even whale.

Interesting.

But yea, it seems our digestive systems can adapt to it pretty well, given that we've been doing this since long before doctors were around. I suppose the acid kills all the bacteria in the rotten meat unless you're super weak immune wise.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#162
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong and that's an excellent example. I'm questioning the idea that somehow people were able to consume this food impact-free. I struggle with the common narrative that somehow people were healthier and better in some dark forgotten past and we should return to those times for our own well being. There often seems to be promises that conditions like IBS would stop existing if we did that. But maybe ancien…

> I struggle with the common narrative that somehow people were healthier and better in some dark forgotten past and we should return to those times for our own well being I think there's a bit of a slightly saner way to put this viewpoint-- that: - Humans evolved in a very different environment from which we live now - Our degree of genetic adaptation to modern living is relatively small, because there's been a blin…

I agree that the system is complicated. But it's hard to make the argument that we were genetically well adapted, or that said adaptation didn't come up with sub-optimal tradeoffs to everything we suffered through when we were paleolithic as well. Evolution is very good at building "good enough" systems for an organism to survive in whatever environment it's in based upon what energy it has available.

I too don't like rejecting things outright, but knowing that, I also don't accept things outright either. We have no reason to believe that eating rotten meat wasn't a choice made out of necessity rather than out of some sort of optimal health.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#163
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I struggle with the common narrative that somehow people were healthier and better in some dark forgotten past and we should return to those times for our own well being I think there's a bit of a slightly saner way to put this viewpoint-- that: - Humans evolved in a very different environment from which we live now - Our degree of genetic adaptation to modern living is relatively small, because there's been a blin…

I agree that the system is complicated. But it's hard to make the argument that we were genetically well adapted, or that said adaptation didn't come up with sub-optimal tradeoffs to everything we suffered through when we were paleolithic as well. Evolution is very good at building "good enough" systems for an organism to survive in whatever environment it's in based upon what energy it has available. I too don't lik…

> We have no reason to believe that eating rotten meat wasn't a choice made out of necessity rather than out of some sort of optimal health.

First, basically every choice could be said to be made out of some kind of necessity.

There's a big middle ground even from this. E.g. "eating rotten meat caused a lot of harms, but it also happened to fulfill a couple of somewhat important functions, and thus there was no evolutionary pressure to meet these requirements in any other way"

Thus, even if eating rotten meat today would be a net negative for many, many reasons (and I strongly suspect this is the case), it makes a lot of sense to think about and study what possible benefits it could have had besides merely being available.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#164
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the system is complicated. But it's hard to make the argument that we were genetically well adapted, or that said adaptation didn't come up with sub-optimal tradeoffs to everything we suffered through when we were paleolithic as well. Evolution is very good at building "good enough" systems for an organism to survive in whatever environment it's in based upon what energy it has available. I too don't lik…

> We have no reason to believe that eating rotten meat wasn't a choice made out of necessity rather than out of some sort of optimal health. First, basically every choice could be said to be made out of some kind of necessity. There's a big middle ground even from this. E.g. "eating rotten meat caused a lot of harms, but it also happened to fulfill a couple of somewhat important functions, and thus there was no evolu…

Fair enough. It's not outside of the realm of possibility there is some benefit.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#165
post #2

I don't see how that's surprising, at least if you subscribe to the Endurance Running Hypothesis (and I do). Any prey humans used to hunt using what we now know as persistence hunting would have been large game. Especially in the hot, tropic climates early humans seemed to have thrived in, such meat would have started to spoil, even if hunted fresh, before any such hunter would have had the time to bring it back to t…

Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way, and hominids were already making tools by the time they had developed to subsist on meat. The endurance/persistence hypothesis doesn't even make sense without tools like spears, knives, or arrows, because humans don't kill their prey by biting into them. If they had access to primitive weaponry, w…

> Why subscribe to the endurance running hypothesis, though? There are no contemporary examples of humans hunting that way,

I believe the Khoi in the Kalahari still hunt this way. I also thought that's one of the reasons we might have lost our hair and the way we perspire?

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#166
post #96

I recall reading, a long time ago, of a person who was eating just meat and only meat for his diet. He was struggling for a while with it, until he intentionally allowed a small amount of meat to rot for a bit, consumed that, and from then on he did much better on that diet. The principle I believe was in play was that the rotting meat contained a lot of bacteria that was very good at breaking down that meat (it woul…

> To the extent that you see claims that “ancient humans ate large amounts of rotten meat” I suspect they’re conflating that with merely “spoiled by modern food standards” meat, which is much less rotten than it sounds.

The example from TFA suggests you are wrong about that -- at least judging by the rotten meat dripping with maggots:

"In one recorded incident from late-1800s Greenland, a well-intentioned hunter brought what he had claimed in advance was excellent food to a team led by American explorer Robert Peary. A stench filled the air as the hunter approached Peary’s vessel carrying a rotting seal dripping with maggots."

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#167
I'm not saying this is false, but it sure is setting off my BS detectors, so I'd be curious for other perspectives.

I was taught in school that Europeans traded and used spices specifically in order to mask the smell of rotting meat, and then learned later as an adult that was total BS. The story had seemed so tantalizing -- we were so primitive just a few centuries ago, thank goodness we're in the modern world! But nope -- rotten meat is just rotten meat and it's revolting period. Spices were expensive, and the people who could afford spices sure as heck weren't eating rotten meat.

And then I read this article and there are a lot of comments by explorers describing eating rotten meat -- but explorers were often trying to highlight just how primitive these "other" peoples are -- look at their disgusting practices, unlike civilized man!

And then the article also repeatedly conflates rotten with fermented, when these are quite different things with different effects. It also ignores the fact that something can be rotten on the outside, but once you cut those parts off, the inside is perfectly fine. That's the whole principle behind dry-aged beef, after all. And even in English, hákarl, which is fermented shark, is often incorrectly referred to as "rotten shark", presumably to increase the shock value for tourists.

And look, I'm an incredibly adventurous eater. I've overcome a lot of things that initially were aversions. But I simply don't see how you can overcome an aversion to actual rotting meat. It would seem to be on par with an aversion to eating feces.

What does seem plausible is that, as we know, fermenting and aging meat is a thing, and that people who aren't used to fermenting can find it disgusting and mistake it for rotting, and that explorers confused the two and sometimes even embellished their accounts for dramatic effect, again to highlight just how primitive these people were. But the idea that humans regularly ate rotten meat -- all I'll say is, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do we really have that evidence?

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fish and not just Eskimo. Northern tribes rot whole deer, seal and even whale.

Interesting. But yea, it seems our digestive systems can adapt to it pretty well, given that we've been doing this since long before doctors were around. I suppose the acid kills all the bacteria in the rotten meat unless you're super weak immune wise.

Not just that, there are toxins lethal to "normal" humans (i.e. cadaverine) that one can adapt to by eating small amounts as a child. Chukchi babies would get ever more rotten bones to suck on (i.e. pacifiers) presumably for that purpose.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's obvious that at least in our very recent evolutionary history we had far higher tolerance to spoilage. I would agree, both in terms of actual immunity and taste response, although generally-speaking eating rotten meat (especially when well-sourced) is not nearly as risky as common wisdom would make it out to be. Many folks in the deeper circles of online carnivoria dabble in "high meat" (fermented rotten meat,…

Fermentation implies an intentional process that protects against spoilage. I don't think anyone considers sauerkraut or wine rotten food.

Good point, although I think whether or not animal flesh is "spoiled" after spending weeks or months fermenting in a jar might depend on who you ask.

Re: Rotten meat may have been a staple of Stone Age diets

#170
post #53

Scavenging explains many of the body traits that humans have.. are good binocular vision allows us to see long distances.. so prehistoric man may have been able to see buzzards surfing over a corpse miles away.. so then we began to ran toward the corpse but we had to run fast so that we could beat the other animals to it.. our skeletal structure allows us to run fast and the fact that we have little hair allows us to…

Also perhaps: hoarding, collecting and doom scrolling.
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