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Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

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Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#161
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hmmm... Well, this isn't an attack against you personally, or a tit-for-tat sort of comment, but... > We have to work among the group of people for which this behavior is standard procedure. You ARE saying that this is acceptable, since "we have to" work among them, and I just don't agree :)

Well, the alternative is homelessness and early death.

I believe comments like this is why I'm constantly finding disagreement with what you say. You have a very hard slant. Personally, I've found, and seen others having, a wide array of alternatives available to them.

If "we" don't show that this behavior is wrong, through our actions, it will continue...

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#162

I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course, they hang out with each other. Same with executives at large companies. They might be nominally "competitors", but they've already learned that they have more in common with one another than with employees in the companies they run.

Not that I'm trying to argue against this being an evil practice, but out of curiosity, how many YC startups would consider it OK to poach staff from another YC startup? Would it cause bad feeling?

Bad feeling? Bad feelings affect all sorts of decisions, so what? That would be different than, say, YC telling companies not to do so, and the companies agreeing en mass. That would be a conspiracy of criminal conduct. But most YC companies are so small that the idea of taking a person from another tiny company, YC or not, probably would cause a "bad feeling". Give the tiny companies a break. God, I interviewed at one and they asked if I was married and had kids, because if I did, then it wouldn't work out. The answer was no, and no, and the important one was also a no. They will get better some day, but when they are so small, it doesn't matter.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#163

Serious question: if an accelerator asks participating startups to not hire employees from one another, does it violate laws governing fair competition?

I think that would fall under conspiracy to commit crimes, but talk to a lawyer. In the end, I think it would show that the accelerator was pretty stupid. There will be a natural inclination not to do so inside the program anyway, so why cross the line like that?

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does poaching create artificial demand? If your employee is valuable enough that another company wants to recruit them, that's not artificial demand, it's real demand. If you won't or can't match a salary somebody else is willing to pay, you deserve to lose that employee. If your employee can't do the tasks you require of him, you fire him. If you can't pay your employees what they are worth, they go else…

Lets take a scenario. You Hire a guy and pay him $120 K a year. Within 6 months you spend say $60k training him. He now theoretically becomes worth $120K per year. Would you be happy if someone just came and offered that much? Considering the time taken to recruit and money to train him. In essence, Facebook (or big spenders) can make a small talented startup their official recruiting arm. As the guy being recruited,…

If you don't want an employee to leave, don't use an "at-will" employment agreement.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#165
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the alternative is homelessness and early death.

I believe comments like this is why I'm constantly finding disagreement with what you say. You have a very hard slant. Personally, I've found, and seen others having, a wide array of alternatives available to them. If "we" don't show that this behavior is wrong, through our actions, it will continue...

Rank and file workers work among middle managers who would see no problem with illegal collusion with other companies, but they themselves lack the power to actually organize something like this. The general population is pretty much on par with middle managers culture wise, and would drive the average worker into the ground so their couple shares of GOOG stock can go up 1%. So it doesn't rise to something that would make a person quit, and since the general population are ok with and identify with middle management practices, its unlikely the situation would be better elsewhere.

As far my views on alternatives there is: unemployment: bankruptcy, couch surfing or living in a shelter self funded startup: doesn't pay and likely to fail. without external factors like connections or rich uncle, probably won't get off the ground before bankruptcy. small team of equal partners: doesn't pay, requires capital to pay in, "equal" partners will probably try to push each other out. incubator: pays very bad, greeks bearing gifts, silly patronizing, reality tv-like environment. angel investor: can't find these unless you're famous, have well-connected family, or already successful. small company/startup: founders will shit all over your day. will take everything personally (including payday) and want you to conform to their values. Don't like golf? Not a drinker?, gtfo. pay is shit. big evil company: Half a dozen middle managers are trying to figure out how screwing you improves their situation. ceo is probably doing bad things. pay is good.

So, yeah, if you take the financial aspect out of work, there are a wide array of alternatives.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#166
post #94
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. IANAL, but I believe class action lawsuits deal with civil, not criminal, offenses. Don't be so fast to downvote the grandparent if you didn't understand the question.

Yes, it is illegal in a criminal way, thus the original DOJ investigation and settlement between these companies and the DOJ.

That's not what "criminal" means under law.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#167
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it amusing when well-meaning people try to dictate what a given word or phrase should mean. Language evolves in a chaotic way, often against logical arguments. You might be right, but "conspiracy theory" already has an established meaning, and you are not going to change that.

Sure, but that also means I am free to try and re-re-define words back to their origin as well :)

The latest xkcd[1] sums it up pretty well.

[1] http://xkcd.com/1010/

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#168

According to http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/921674/In_Re_High-Tech_Emp... , the source pdf, defendants are: * Apple * Lucasfilm * Adobe * Intuit * Google * Intel * Pixar Good to know. I shall follow this case with interest.

I'm curious if the list is exhaustive, or if it is just the ones who got caught.

Heh heh, that's what discovery is for.

Of course, they might settle to avoid among other things more dirty laundry coming out or being solidly confirmed.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#169

I think anyone whose opinion of Steve Jobs is changed by this knowledge needs to take a good look in the mirror and ask if they are not the hypocrite. Jobs always was a consumate businessman. Before Apple, even, he was scheming his way through a job, getting Wozniak to do his work and going back on his word to split profits. But isn't that what America is all about? Aren't your shoes, clothes, electronics, etc. made…

"Do you also get angry when oil companies hire lobbyists to wine-and-dine politicians until they give favorable exploration rights on federal lands to those companies? " Yes, this does anger me, what is your point? I think a lot of people are angered by this, however this issue being discussed here is a bit "closer to home" in that we are probably more empowered to do something this issue than that of corruption in p…

The right to petition is enshrined in the First Amendment; if you don't like its excesses you'll need to start by changing the Constitution with a new amendment.
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