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California cancels salmon fishing season

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Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#161
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a classic Tragedy Of The Commons. Establish ownable fishing rights per ocean areas, and regular greed will solve this problem.

We've heard similar arguments in post-soviet countries regarding farming land - private land owners will take better care of the land, will protect the wildlife, won't poison their own land, etc. Privatization didn't help ... small owners rent their land to the big ag, wildlife is still being decimated, land degradation accelerated, and now there are new deserts in central Europe (last week there was a sand storm in…

I mean, the USSR’s state-run actions completely drained and destroyed one of the largest inland seas in the world. Public isn’t always the answer either.

What really works for ocean policy is putting informed experts in charge of global regulations and everyone adhering to the rules under strict observation and penalties. It’s just really hard to get those institutions setup.

There’s an opportunity to use the existing UNCLOS framework to establish rules around commercial fishing operations, but they’ve been stalled for years. Likely because China is the worst offender and currently disputes a lot of the rules around sea/ocean territory given their interests in their immediate maritime spaces.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me ashamed to be human. Reading stuff like that, and thinking about what we do to cows, sheep, lambs, chickens, etc, it dawned on me a while ago that humans have no right to treat animals like they're just a bunch of cells to be treated however we want, like a serial killer treats their victims. But that animals are fellow beings, a lot like us in many ways. I didn't want pain, or someone to kill me, so I fi…

We moved to the Irish countryside and hearing the dairy cows wailing for their calves that have just been taken away from them is an uexpected meat/dairy deterrent.

I've always been impressed by vegetarians, because of their comfort in the moral convictions that keep cows alive and suffering for their dairy and children, but never dead for their meat (and an end to their suffering).

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#163
post #74

Here in Sweden we have major issues with hydroelectric power preventing salmons from reaching their spawning areas. Some rivers have limited or event stopped fishing because there just aren't enough that survive the trip past the power stations (that assuming there is a path past them for the fish to use). Is there similar issues in California?

Northern California and Oregon have removed some dams because of this problems, but there are particular fish for whom it's still a big problem. As you can imagine with a fish that returns to the same streams, and a large river system, you can have some tributaries that are fully accessible, some that are slightly accessible, and some that aren't accessible at all.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#164
post #37
post #15

It's not just the draughts. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts "Species like thresher, bull and hammerhead sharks have lost up to 80-99% of their populations in the last two decades. Seabird populations have declined by 70% since the 1950's. Studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard as bycatch. Six out of seven species of sea turtles are either threatened or endangered due to fishing…

And in EU, the French government just announced that it will "strongly oppose" forbidding deep ocean scrubbing nets in "protected areas" (which are therefore totally unprotected). They look like caricature villains from a comic book or something. Bonkers. For history, here's the criminal, senseless moron, shame on him, shame on them all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtfGFt1c5H8

The Dutch experimented with pulse fishing [0]. This had some good benefits for the sea and didn't seem to negatively impact the fishing industry over here much. It was banned again by the EU, according to some due to lobbying on behalf of other countries that were afraid they'd have to start investing in it too.

0: https://www.wur.nl/en/dossiers/file/pulse-fishing.htm

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#165
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equals to kill several millions of people. Bad idea.

Worse idea: doing absolutely nothing to change our course of action until our decisions no longer matter because ecosystems have collapsed and hundreds of million of people are dying. That's how you get The Jackpot.

We have to do something. This is something. Therefore, we have to do this.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law of supply and demand expects the marginal cost of each additional fish to be more expensive. What if it's not. What if it costs the same amount of money to catch fish until you catch the very last fish. Suddenly the price of fish jumps from $.03/fish to infinity. Some sort of quota system has to be implemented and enforced to not come to such an abrupt halt on a market like that. Fish is one thing, at least t…

I remember one of my undergrad economics professors going on a rant about how we will never run out of oil or tungsten or whatever because the marginal cost will increase gradually until we find alternative materials. It sounded very intelligent and convincing to me at 18, and sounds downright idiotic to me now.

s someone who degreed in economics, and has been studying the economic resource situation formally and informally for nearly five decades, what I've come to realise is that economics has a very shaky grasp on the actual, and sensible, pricing of extractive resources.

Economically, mining is exploitation of any resource on a basis which fails to account for the full ecological formation costs of that resource.

In the case of petroleum, we can look at one ecological cost: time.

Petroleum formed over a period of hundreds of millions of years. It's been extracted by humans for a couple of hundred years. Even on napkin math, the time cost is being discounted by on the order of one million fold.

If the resource were so vast that it could not be meaningfully exhausted, this wouldn't be an issue. But we've hit peak conventional oil within numerous major producer countries, and quite probably the world, which corresponds to roughly half the total exploitable resource having been exhausted.

The economic theory most often mentioned for pricing of nonrenewable resources is Hotelling's Rule, formulated in 1932. I've read that paper numerous times, and the fact that strikes me most about it is that although it cites earlier economic works and numerous references of the author himself, it cites absolutely no scientific, geological, or petrochemical references. It's utterly devoid of any real-world grounding.

And we have pricing data to invalidate it, one of the most comprehensive being crude oil prices dating to 1870 or so. That's published as part of BP's Annual Statistical Review of Energy, showing both nominal and inflation-adjusted prices.

What's clear is that price does not follow the trend predicted by Hotelling, but rather reflects, at various times, unrestrained extraction (when the price collapses), various catellisations and embargos (when it peaks), and several periods of long-term managed output, during which it remains quite nearly constant. The longest and most stable such period was from the early 1930s to the early 1970s, following the establishment of regulated extraction in the United States (at the time the world's peak, and surplus-capacity, provider of oil).

Immediately prior to this period, following major discoveries and unregulated extraction in East Texas, the price fell from a target $1/bbl to $0.13/bbl, and finally as low as $0.02/bbl. The rational for pricing wasn't Hotelling's model, but the bare minimum price required to meet marginal costs of extraction.

More recently, in the 2000s and 2010s, what's emerged has been the flip side of demand destruction, where prices of oil can rise to the point that economic activity can't support them, and demand collapses, with it ultimately price (as more expensive marginal wells are withdrawn from production). Price has see-sawed between highs as the global economy surged, and lows, as it collapsed. Sometimes exogenously as with the 2020 global COVID pandemic, which saw US spot futures prices fall negative briefly at contracts expired and delivery had to be made --- there was no available storage and traders paid to have their oil offloaded.

The upshot is that extractive commodity prices don't behave as one might expect during periods of exhaustion. Rather than rising monotonically, they'll jump around on thin trading, surges in supply and demand, and external influences.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#167
post #74

Here in Sweden we have major issues with hydroelectric power preventing salmons from reaching their spawning areas. Some rivers have limited or event stopped fishing because there just aren't enough that survive the trip past the power stations (that assuming there is a path past them for the fish to use). Is there similar issues in California?

We have a similar issue here in Switzerland (a river that ends in the ocean in northern Germany) were salmon disappeared 50years ago. Too many gates, hydroelectric plants etc.

Apparently they saw the first salmon coming back after 50 years: https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/fish-story-fi...

As a child I heard that story about bringing the salmons back. That it took 50 years and not yet a success is somehow very disappointing and I wonder if other countries will afford such ling-term restoration projects.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#168
post #128
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone said I could live my life and be happy but at the end I have to die or not live at all I am going to choose life. The same is true for the animals I raise. They get to have a very peaceful life where they are spoiled. They get heat in the winter, fresh water daily, the correct amount of calories each day, treats which they love like fresh picked berries and other foods they love, protection from predators,…

All those things could presumably be said about Scandinavian prisons but anyone would still prefer freedom ;)

What's an animal going to do with it's freedom? Go get a college degree and launch a startup?

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#169
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we can’t all enjoy the resource. That’s how we got into this mess.

We can all enjoy it, in ways other than strip mining it from the sea all at once.

Good point. Enjoyment doesn’t require consumption.

Re: California cancels salmon fishing season

#170
post #15

It's not just the draughts. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts "Species like thresher, bull and hammerhead sharks have lost up to 80-99% of their populations in the last two decades. Seabird populations have declined by 70% since the 1950's. Studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard as bycatch. Six out of seven species of sea turtles are either threatened or endangered due to fishing…

The law of supply and demand expects the marginal cost of each additional fish to be more expensive. What if it's not. What if it costs the same amount of money to catch fish until you catch the very last fish. Suddenly the price of fish jumps from $.03/fish to infinity. Some sort of quota system has to be implemented and enforced to not come to such an abrupt halt on a market like that. Fish is one thing, at least t…

If you want less of something, tax it. Tax the caught fish.
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