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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#161

Post by elil17 »

ajross wrote: post #88
elil17 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "self driving" tech that works (e.g. auto braking) is deployed and has saved lives. (Self driving in quotes because it is not really the full promise of self driving.) This Tesla AI does not work well enough in many conditions and is clearly sometimes more dangerous than humans. Just watch videos of people using it - it's obvious that is making unforgivable errors.

Do you have evidence for "clearly more dangerous"? Because what numbers exist say the opposite. They are now pushing a million (!) of these vehicles on US roads and to my knowledge the bay bridge accident[1] is the only example of a significant at fault accident involving the technology. It's very easy to make pronouncements like "one accident is too many", but we all know that's not correct in context. Right? If FSD…

I don't believe one accident is too many. I made my statement based on videos I've seen of people having to disengage their beta FSD in circumstances where a human driver would have no trouble.

Now, maybe the data says otherwise. If that is the case, then great! Let's role out some more FSD beta. But for that data to be valid, you have to account for the fact that Tesla filters bad drivers out of the pool of FSD users. And as I understand it there is not public data about the risk profiles of the people Tesla lets use FSD.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#162

Post by abc_lisper »

adoxyz wrote: post #127
jejeyyy77 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, I don't believe you. I use it every day and have been for over a year and it's been awesome.

You can believe whatever you want. The reality is that FSD Beta is unsafe and makes the dumbest decisions. Every update I give it a try to see if anything has improved, and usually within the first 30 seconds, I end up turning it off. Autopilot on Freeways works ok for the most part though.

You both could be right. It might depend on the area the car is driven. I guess you are not in the Bay Area?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#164

Post by yumraj »

cptskippy wrote: post #145
yumraj wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems there’s a huge disconnect between people who know how to drive and are confident in their skills, and those who are scared to drive and want to offload it to Musk. I’m actually afraid to drive behind a Tesla and either keep extra distance or change lanes if possible. I still have more faith in humans to not randomly brake them in beta FSD. It’s one thing to put your own life in the hands of this beta model,…

> I’m actually afraid to drive behind a Tesla and either keep extra distance or change lanes if possible. Irrespective of the Teslas or FSD: If you're afraid of an accident due to the vehicle in front of you braking regardless of the circumstances, then you're following too closely. It doesn't matter if the braking event is anticipated or unexpected. If you're not confident in your ability to avoid an accident if the…

> If you're afraid of an accident due to the vehicle in front of you braking regardless of the circumstances, then you're following too closely.

I know what you're saying, but that is not what I'd meant. Also, I don't follow too closely.

The difference here is that almost always a driver will brake depending on the happenings in front of them. So, if you pay attention to not only the car in front, but in front of them and in the neighboring lanes and so on, you can sense and also detect patterns in how a particular driver is driving. There are many skittish drivers who brake every 1 second and some don't, and so on. Basically based on your driving experience you can predict a little.

The problem here is that this stupid POC FSD will brake randomly or change lane randomly or whatever, so there is no way you can predict, and hence my concern and issue with it. I just prefer to change the lane, but that's not always an option.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#165

Post by trinix912 »

causi wrote: post #12
adampk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone can drive from Palm Springs to SF with no intervention does that not make it bullshit anymore?

When someone can drive from Palm Springs to SF Does that mean "stay in the correct lane on the interstate and take the proper exits without hitting anything" or does that mean "begin inside your garage and end inside another garage five hundred miles away without touching anything"? The first one is nearly trivial. It stops being bullshit when they stop telling the user they need to pay attention to the road, and not…

Imagine a scenario: someone's on a bike, running down the street towards the pedestrian crossing. There's a vehicle (truck, bus...) on the left covering the view. The cyclist swiftly crosses the road, the car doesn't detect anything as there's nothing to detect (because of the truck/bus), bam!

Many drivers would see the cyclist before and be very careful when passing the other vehicle (although we don't predict correctly 100% of the time either). I haven't had a chance to test any self-driving system yet so I'm legitimately interested, do those systems reliably detect such things?

Not to mention people (esp. kids) racing through intersections on electric scooters, casually ignoring traffic rules...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#166

Post by root_axis »

billfor wrote: post #116
root_axis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD is terrible. I have it, it's dangerous. If I had to go 5 miles through city streets I'd sooner trust a human after 3 shots of tequila before I'd trust FSD every time.

Disagree. I've had the beta for a year and drive in NYC. It has been mostly flawless considering all scenarios it has to handle. It does make the occasional mistake but (1) it's a beta and (2) I'm responsible for monitoring and correcting it. Agree that those that expected more should be entitled to a refund if they so desire.

> It does make the occasional mistake

Yeah, that's what I mean by "dangerous".

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#167

Post by [deleted] »

apnew wrote: post #64

> The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#169

Post by toomuchtodo »

rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

This is limited to certain pre mapped roads, under 40 mph and requires a car in front to follow. This in no way compares to Tesla's Autopilot system.

Edit (because HN throttling replies): > Mercedes is being responsible about their rollout

You can always succeed if you define success. If rolling out something that doesn't do much of anything is success, success? Oh well. Less than 20 people have died related to Autopilot in ~5 billion miles of travel. Zero deaths is unattainable and unrealistic, so "responsible" and "safe" is based on whatever narrative is being pushed. 43k people died in US car accidents last year, roughly half a million deaths in the entire time Tesla has offered some sort of driver assistance system called Autopilot.

How many deaths would be be okay with Mercedes' system where is would still be "responsible"? Because it won't be zero. Even assuming 100% penetration of Automatic Emergency Braking systems, it's only predicted to reduce fatalities by 13.2% (China specific study), and injuries by a similar number.

TLDR "Safe" is not zero deaths. It is a level of death we are comfortable with to continue to use vehicles to travel at scale.

https://www.tesladeaths.com/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7037779/

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#170

Post by recursive »

moralestapia wrote: post #82

That's 4-5B USD worth of fraud. This thing could actually be quite dangerous for TSLA. One class-action lawsuit around this and they're bankrupt. Edit: Dang, you're all right, they could eat this and still be alive. My whole sentiment comes from FSD being their big shot (and everything that comes with that, like the robotaxis and whatnot). Without FSD, they're "just another car company" and the market is already thri…

What would happen to the other ~15B they have in the bank?
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