Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave • Hacker News Board

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#161

Post by Izkata » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:47 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #151

zabzonk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's an IC? a piece of corporate-speak i haven't come across before.

Others have answered what the words "IC" mean, but let me add that this is the usual name for the technical career track, i.e. the not-management track, meant for people who do not want to manage teams of people. Strictly speaking, the roles of Engineer Manager and IC are incompatible; you cannot want to manage people and at the same time want to stay out of it. So in this particular context, "EM+IC" is a misnomer fo…

> this is the usual name

I dunno if it's just me, but it seems like the term came out of nowhere just a couple years ago.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#162

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:48 PM UTC

zabzonk wrote: post #134

hiddencost wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience is much the opposite: the managers who want to write a lot of code usually are so focused on their contributions they fail their other responsibilities. The ones who are trying to set product direction are usually harmful, too. The managers I've had the best experience with are the ones who focus on helping their ICs navigate the larger organization, dealing with human issues, and helping the ICs unders…

what's an IC? a piece of corporate-speak i haven't come across before.

[deleted]

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#163

Post by 121789 » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:48 PM UTC

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #124

throwaway4837 wrote: post #111

Zuck has it right. All the worst managers/directors/VPs in engineering I've seen are people who don't contribute anything to the codebase. They actively discourage managers who want to write code from writing code. They instead encourage them to focus fully on process and sprint management. Lots of backwards ideologies in tech perpetuated by B-players who got a little too comfortable with "people management". I would…

Aren't Product Managers & TPMs considered ICs? They don't have direct reports but aren't writing code either. I imagine this will be a more common option for these Engineering Managers who are managing other managers

It’s the same structure for PMs (ICs and managers of PMs). In general I’ve noticed PM managers spend more time in IC type of work than EMs

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#164

Post by KaiserPro » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:48 PM UTC

throwaway4837 wrote: post #111

Zuck has it right. All the worst managers/directors/VPs in engineering I've seen are people who don't contribute anything to the codebase. They actively discourage managers who want to write code from writing code. They instead encourage them to focus fully on process and sprint management. Lots of backwards ideologies in tech perpetuated by B-players who got a little too comfortable with "people management". I would…

> They instead encourage them to focus fully on process and sprint management.

Thats literally the point. Its totally fucking batshit that somewhere like meta still uses spreadsheet to plan. This is why properly trained people should be doing management.

Project management at scale is not something you "dip into" its a full time job to project manage and people manage. Its not something most ICs should be doing.

A consultant[1] surgeon leads a team, but they don't manage the timesheets of the juniors, nurses and assistants. Meta very much expects that a consultant surgeon not only does surgery, but fills rostas, recruits nurses, does some marketing and works on the legal policy for negligence.

The issue at meta is that with the growth there is no "leadership". What is a lowly IC supposed to work on? "create consensus" and "drive from the bottoms up". That doesn't work when you have 11 layers of management, all pissing about talking about impact, but not actually driving projects.

> I would think that the role of an "Engineering Manager" or "Tech Lead" or "Team Lead" etc. should all be pretty interchangeable, or at least have very high overlap.

You should try it. Its pretty clear you've not managed people at any level of scale or formality. Not everything is code, babes.

(No. I'm not a manager at meta, thank fuck, it sounds pretty shitty.)

[1]https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/careers-in-surgery/surgical-care-te...

edit I meant uk consultant surgeon, thank you to commentor for pointing out my mistake

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#165

Post by FlyingSnake » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:49 PM UTC

throwaway4837 wrote: post #111

Zuck has it right. All the worst managers/directors/VPs in engineering I've seen are people who don't contribute anything to the codebase. They actively discourage managers who want to write code from writing code. They instead encourage them to focus fully on process and sprint management. Lots of backwards ideologies in tech perpetuated by B-players who got a little too comfortable with "people management". I would…

Pournell's Iron Law¹ in action. The administrators will always hoard the power and control promotions etc in an organisation.

Studies have shown time and again that small autonomous teams is the most optimal setup for software development. Having a layer of Director, SVP and VPs on top of EMs is just Pournell's Iron Law manifesting itself.

1: https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#166

Post by neosat » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #124

throwaway4837 wrote: post #111

Zuck has it right. All the worst managers/directors/VPs in engineering I've seen are people who don't contribute anything to the codebase. They actively discourage managers who want to write code from writing code. They instead encourage them to focus fully on process and sprint management. Lots of backwards ideologies in tech perpetuated by B-players who got a little too comfortable with "people management". I would…

Aren't Product Managers & TPMs considered ICs? They don't have direct reports but aren't writing code either. I imagine this will be a more common option for these Engineering Managers who are managing other managers

Product Manager can refer to an individual contributor IC or someone who also manages other Product Managers (and sometimes even adjacent functions) e.g. a Group Product Manager. The titles are not very standard though. Many of these roles are hybrid as well. For example, a Product manager who will be responsible for a Product portfolio and some products in that portfolio as an IC, while managing/supporting the work of PMs working on other products in that portfolio.

Same for TPMs. They can be ICs or managing other TPMs.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#167

Post by prepend » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

eftychis wrote: post #139

zabzonk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's an IC? a piece of corporate-speak i haven't come across before.

Individual Contributor. Don't ask me why in heavens that term makes any sense outside one that is myopic or only works with extremely fresh out of school junior engineers and unskilled workers. Edit: P.S. Not sure why a couple of people decided to downvote this opinion. Also to other commenters: it sounds to me less as a be a team player title (like the soldier one suggested) and more like an isolated resource that m…

I actually like the term as it seems pretty accurate to me and I don’t know if a more accurate term.

There’s many types of “managers” who are actually individual contributors (eg, sysadmin, project admin).

When you get into principal engineer and architect titles, sometimes those positions manage people and sometimes they don’t.

I think it also highlights how one version of contributor isn’t better than the others. Some people only produce value by being part of a team, some produce value by managing, and some produce value direct from themselves.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#168

Post by hotpotamus » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

eftychis wrote: post #139

zabzonk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's an IC? a piece of corporate-speak i haven't come across before.

Individual Contributor. Don't ask me why in heavens that term makes any sense outside one that is myopic or only works with extremely fresh out of school junior engineers and unskilled workers. Edit: P.S. Not sure why a couple of people decided to downvote this opinion. Also to other commenters: it sounds to me less as a be a team player title (like the soldier one suggested) and more like an isolated resource that m…

I've always like the term soldier. It's what organized crime syndicates, armies, and ant colonies all use. The worst is when someone gets called a "resource", but I can't get too exercised about IC.

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#169

Post by rsynnott » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:51 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #154

rsynnott wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the EM becomes an IC, how does this help the team grow their own skills and not get distracted by problems the EM should be moving out of their way? Well, generally the team would still have an EM, just not that EM. > When the EM is an IC, what stops them from either interfering with small stuff What stops any IC doing that?

> Well, generally the team would still have an EM, just not that EM If there is an EM role, I don't see the problem. I took TFA to mean "become an EM who also codes". > What stops any IC doing that? Nothing, but an IC has by definition time to tackle big problems. Also, other ICs are their peers. An EM+IC has no time to tackle big problems -- or if they do, then they are neglecting their management role -- and so by…

> I took TFA to mean "become an EM who also codes".

I don't _think_ that's what they're saying. I read it as "we have too many EMs; would some EMs like to un-EM, please?

Re: Meta to ask many managers to become individual contributors or leave

#170

Post by sbrother » Tue, Feb 07, 2023, 8:51 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #151

zabzonk wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's an IC? a piece of corporate-speak i haven't come across before.

Others have answered what the words "IC" mean, but let me add that this is the usual name for the technical career track, i.e. the not-management track, meant for people who do not want to manage teams of people. Strictly speaking, the roles of Engineer Manager and IC are incompatible; you cannot want to manage people and at the same time want to stay out of it. So in this particular context, "EM+IC" is a misnomer fo…

TLM is the term I've heard for that more often.