Live data from Hacker News

Why was Roman concrete so durable?

news.mit.edu

161–170 of 299 posts

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#161

Isn't the particularly short lifespan of modern concrete construction mostly a combination of its use in areas with regular freeze-thaw cycles and using a reinforcement material that rusts (and in doing so expands, damaging more concrete and hastening further water inclusion)?

I'm just going to throw it out there to spread the word; GFRP Rebar (Glass Fiber Reinforced Polymer) is a thing, and you can buy it today at your local hardware store. I really wish I would have known about it on my last project, probably the last time I will buy steel rebar to put in concrete. I'm not an ME, but my understanding is that it is a comp in terms of structural reinforcement. I'd be really interested to d…

Any comparison in tensile strength?

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as well as expanding rust. Ideally they’d seal before the rebar is exposed and can rust. As long as the rebar is encased, unless you fucked up dramatically it should be safe.

this isn't really possible. For the rebar to take up meaningful tensile stresses, the concrete nearby must have cracked. Reinforced concrete ALWAYS cracks. If you want better corrosion resistance, you do other things - lower water ratios, increased concrete cover, sulfate resistant concrete with lower permeability, different reinforcing or epoxy coated reinforcing, etc.

Not always, if rebars are pre-tensioned before concrete solidifies. So the rebar is always under tension. Pretty common in prefab parts, like bridge bars.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#163
It looks like ChatGPT already knew that (or I skimmed too quickly):

Why was Roman concrete so durable?

Roman concrete, also known as opus caementicium, was a highly durable construction material used by the ancient Romans for a variety of structures, including aqueducts, bridges, and buildings. There are several factors that contributed to the durability of Roman concrete:

The use of lime and pozzolanic materials: Roman concrete was made from a mixture of lime, water, and an aggregate such as sand or crushed stone. The lime was derived from the heating of limestone, which produced a highly reactive form of calcium oxide. The Romans also added a pozzolanic material, such as volcanic ash, to the mixture, which improved the durability and strength of the concrete by reacting with the lime to form a cementitious material.

The inclusion of a reinforcement material: Roman concrete was often reinforced with a material such as iron or lead, which helped to increase its structural strength and resist cracking.

The use of a hydraulic setting process: Roman concrete was able to harden underwater due to its hydraulic setting properties, which allowed it to set and cure even in the presence of water.

The construction of thick, monolithic structures: Roman concrete was often used to build thick, monolithic structures such as walls and foundations, which were able to withstand the forces of nature and resist deterioration over time.

Overall, the combination of these factors made Roman concrete a highly durable construction material that has stood the test of time.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#164
post #65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then multiple that by 20 (the lifetime of the road surface) and factor in that the resurfacing is significantly cheaper than the initial build and you quickly find roads are easily subsidized by property taxes.

Even in rural areas? Even if we add in the cost of maintaining infrastructure that runs under the road surface (water, sewer, and gas)?

I live in a semi-rural area. There's no utility gas near me; we're too sparse for that to make sense. I'd guess most of the houses have big propane tanks (i've got two 250 gallon tanks) and there's several different companies that will come out and fill the tanks. In the nearby urban area, there's utility gas, but then they're trying to outlaw that for indoor air quality reasons.

I don't have utility water; it's available on my street, but it doesn't run by my house, it stops at a much lower elevation, our well water is fine (although we had to replace the well pump recently which was expensive). No utility sewer either, that's available in parts of my area, but mostly places with density or poor site conditions for septic or both.

Electricity is mostly overhead, with a little bit of underground telephone has a lot of undergrounding, but some overhead, cable and municipal fiber are almost all overhead. But when those are undergrounded here, they're on the sides of the road (directly under the overhead path) not under the road. That way it's easier to get to them for maintenance when needed.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#165

It looks like ChatGPT already knew that (or I skimmed too quickly): Why was Roman concrete so durable? Roman concrete, also known as opus caementicium, was a highly durable construction material used by the ancient Romans for a variety of structures, including aqueducts, bridges, and buildings. There are several factors that contributed to the durability of Roman concrete: The use of lime and pozzolanic materials: Ro…

Read the article, they discover they should use a particular state of lime, quicklime. That's new

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#166

It looks like ChatGPT already knew that (or I skimmed too quickly): Why was Roman concrete so durable? Roman concrete, also known as opus caementicium, was a highly durable construction material used by the ancient Romans for a variety of structures, including aqueducts, bridges, and buildings. There are several factors that contributed to the durability of Roman concrete: The use of lime and pozzolanic materials: Ro…

> The inclusion of a reinforcement material: Roman concrete was often reinforced with a material such as iron or lead, which helped to increase its structural strength and resist cracking.

Sounds like chatgpt messed up it's facts? If this means reenforced like with rebar, the Romans didn't do that - and that's part of why their concrete structures lasted so long - when designed to be under compression rather than tension (arches, domes, etc)

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#167
post #79
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in rural areas? Even if we add in the cost of maintaining infrastructure that runs under the road surface (water, sewer, and gas)?

> (water, sewer, and gas)? Over their lifetime, easily. The pipes for those will last 100 years, easily. The maintenance of them are paid for by the delivery costs you pay in your bill. As for rural I think there's 2 distinctions. 1 is we need rural communities because they produce our food and other things. Secondly, rural areas are between 2 or more populated areas. We need to connect populated areas so by necessit…

> pipes for those will last 100 years, easily

My wife served on a sanitary district board. Decent underground sewer mains have an expected service life of 70 years. Some will last longer, some won't hit the expectation. It depends on site conditions, materials, etc, etc. Many will probably last to 100 years, but I wouldn't expect it to be easy. Especially if you had any of the not decent materials (Orangeburg pipe was common in some areas and is basically wood pulp/fibers mixed with hot tar; service life could vary between 10 and 50 years; the major manufacturer went out of business in 1974, as PVC and ABS pipes rapidly replaced Orangeburg in the materials markerplace).

Actually there was a huge nationwide boom in sewer building post WWII, especially in the 50s, and you can expect that infrastructure to need some largescale replacement over the next 20 years or so. Depending on system design and how housing and industry developed, some systems will be able to just inspect periodically and replace as needed, and some systems will probably take the opportunity to do a more modern redesign (older cities tend to have combined sanitary sewers and storm/runoff drainage; if you're tearing up all the streets to replace the sanitary sewer, it might be a good time to put in a parallel storm drain system)

I'm not sure about water mains, I'd guess they need more frequent replacement since they operate at pressure.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#170

Isn't the particularly short lifespan of modern concrete construction mostly a combination of its use in areas with regular freeze-thaw cycles and using a reinforcement material that rusts (and in doing so expands, damaging more concrete and hastening further water inclusion)?

I'm just going to throw it out there to spread the word; GFRP Rebar (Glass Fiber Reinforced Polymer) is a thing, and you can buy it today at your local hardware store. I really wish I would have known about it on my last project, probably the last time I will buy steel rebar to put in concrete. I'm not an ME, but my understanding is that it is a comp in terms of structural reinforcement. I'd be really interested to d…

The main reason is stiffness—off the top of my head, it’s roughly a quarter as stiff as typical steel, so it needs significant engineering and often much more reinforcement to keep the concrete within allowable deformation limits. Basalt and carbon fiber are more promising replacements, but are significantly more expensive.
Post reply on HN