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Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

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Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#161

Post by kuschku »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #147
scoopertrooper wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we could move the entire current stock of cars over to less carbon intensive fuel without having to build an entirely new fleet. Keeping in mind that manufacturing new cars (and the associated resource extraction) is extremely carbon intensive, then a carbon neutral-ish fuel might actually be the best option overall on a meaningful timescale.

if 87 octane gasoline is $2.99/gallon and this is even 30% more, I’m not sure how you can expect to force the majority of the population (who is supposedly scraping by) to switch maybe the government could subsidize it as national debt?

In europe, we've been beyond 10$/gallon this year. And yet still far too many people drive unnecessarily.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#162

Post by bl_valance »

Toyota was also testing out synthetic fuels on their 3cylinder platform. I'm glad mfgs are testing different things and not just sticking to one thing just because everyone else is doing that. Interesting how Japanese carmakers are still not convinced on full electric, time will only tell. https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyota-gr-86-n...

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#163

Post by mfer »

brk wrote: post #66
mfer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

All the crypto mining dying off should free up a lot of grid resources for EVs. I've heard the "grid can't handle all EVs" statement, but have not seen anything backing up the claim. I believe the grid can in fact handle EVs becoming prevalent. We might need more power generation , which could be new plants, and/or residential solar. Baring some kind of crazy legislation requiring ICE vehicles to be crushed or perman…

Two important things to note…

1) where power is generated and used for crypto isn’t the same as needed for electric cars. Locations matter when you’re dealing with the creation of and distribution of electricity

2) moving electricity to all of the locations where it will be used is another problem. That deals with transmission lines, transformers, the last mile, and all of that stuff. That we don’t hear about it doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. It is Andy the lack of awareness and planning concerns me.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#164

Post by vfclists »

hasmanean wrote: post #98
Semaphor wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. If tomorrow everyone replaces their ICE cars with EVs, then the grid won’t be able to handle that. Completely different situation, though.

We should not replace ICE cars with EVs, but something smaller. Steam engines were large because that was how they got efficiency up. ICE cars could afford to be smaller and more efficient. If they had just replaced steam locmotives with diesel ones that would have been stupid...instead they built a whole new infrastructure around smaller cars that was much better than the rail network and redesigned our entire citie…

Why should the store send a small robot to deliver it you?

You can ride a bicycle to the store to pick it up. Just think of the cardiovascular benefits.

And you know what? Think of the energy cost of the robot's manufacture, and the energy the delivery takes.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#165

Post by sbaiddn »

b34r wrote: post #108
sbaiddn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you consider the limited availability of batteries, electric vehicles don't make sense compared to hybrid ones. Neither make sense compared to halving our speed limits.

“For the first time I can remember, we can access all the supply we need for both businesses.” Martin Viecha, Tesla IR, September 2022 https://electrek.co/2022/09/12/tesla-access-all-the-batterie...

...for Tesla cars. Which are an insignificant part of the world car production.

Do this exercise, pick a workman's work vehicle that has a hybrid version. Make note the mpg difference between the hybrid and regular model. I do mean a workman's vehicle, not a hybrid Versa or the like. A full sized van. A pickup.

Take the Tesla battery pack kWh and divide by the workman's hybrid drivetrain's batt pack. This is how many workman's vehicles could be hybridized with one Tesla.

Look up, make an estimate, the miles a workman drives per year. Do the same for the tesla.

Calculate the fuel burned by one tesla and N regular workman's vehicles and compare that to N hybrid vehicles + one Honda accord.

The scenario with the Tesla ends up burning (much) more gasoline than with the hybrids.

Now multiply that the number of Tesla's made per year.

Is this number high or lower than the number of workman's vehicles made every year?

Note, for simplicity, we haven't even considered far more damaging scenarios involving heavy vehicles doing stop-go all day. Like a municipal van. Or a garbage truck. Or package delivery.

Also note, for simplicity I did not consider the CO2 emission of driving a Tesla. I don't want to get into a "greenified grid" debate.

Teslas are about making rich yuppies keep their cake and eating it too. It makes them feel good, neigh superior, about their over indulgent, over consuming lifestyle. If they truly cared about CO2 they'd be clamoring for lower speed limits.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#166

Post by kybernetyk »

D13Fd wrote: post #93
kybernetyk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany the government asked people not to use electric heaters this winter because the grid could break down. An ev drains way more power then a 2kw space heater.

This is a ridiculous comparison. Google tells me an electric vehicle uses around 14kWh per day if you drive ~14k miles per year, and is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine. Your hypothetical 2kw space heater uses 24kWh a day and is drastically less efficient than a heat pump.

Peak loads let the grid collapse. Not constant loads over N hours. If everyone starts charging their EVs at roughly the same time (like when getting home from work) it won't matter that the EV uses less power over 24hours than a space heater.

EV zealots are just blind to the issues their silver bullet creates. Just like the "walk-able cities" folks.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#167

Post by PaulHoule »

jmole wrote: post #160
PaulHoule wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fischer-Trospch process has a stupendously high capital cost because, even though cheap catalysts work, chemical reactions that build up larger molecules (that can proceed explosively under some conditions) compete with chemical reactions that break molecules down and have to be balanced on a knife edge to get hydrocarbons of the right length. For any normal industrial process people would be really delighted tha…

Why cant you just distill them after producing them, instead of worrying about getting exactly the right length?

Main issue is they want to be length 1 methane or length 1000+ polyethylene

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#168

Post by anonkogudhyfhhf »

kuschku wrote: post #15

> it’s safe to assume that it’ll likely charge a hefty premium over traditional gasoline. > Also worth noting is that while, yes, this synthetic fuel appears to make vehicles slightly more efficient, it still greatly trails the efficiency of EVs. Consequently, vehicles using this fuel will likely always be more expensive to drive per mile than their electric equivalents. So why are we doing this again?

Because they have been dragging their feet and will go bankrupt and this is a last ditch effort to slow down the transition to EVs

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#169

Post by smileysteve »

mfer wrote: post #51
i_am_proteus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

What the grid can't handle is if everybody all at once needed a full 300 mile charge in 8 hours, while they are showering, running ac, and factories are producing. This is partly resolved by sun heating, cold sleep patterns, factory shifts, smart charging, and that 95% of consumers do not make 300 mile daily commutes.

Substation and individual point of charge capacity may not be there for areas without ac, or high density apartments - but that's where distributed charging stations come into play (aka charging stations) (very low volume of gasoline is distributed to home parking, currently). In the worst cases this is readily reduced with storage (liquid or power wall) at distribution centers.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#170

Post by macinjosh »

criley2 wrote: post #36
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

I think it's more about finding an offramp for motorsports and classic cars (and some rural machinery) that are against electrification for a variety of reasons (both legitimate and illegitimate). I don't think there is anyone at all that thinks turning agricultural waste into carbon neutral synthetic fuel for ICE has anything to do with "oil not running out" (which it absolutely is, demand is at all time highs, whil…

Even better if there was an economical solution for farms to turn their own ag wastes into fuel on site or even in local coops. Farmers would jump on that in a minute if they could solve their waste and fuel problems with one solution.
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