Live data from Hacker News

Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

medium.com

161–170 of 176 posts

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#161
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the commercial success of coops, your premise that the main reason for work is money does not hold up to scrutiny. If merely adequately compensated, money turns out to be really low on the list of things that actually motivates people.

I see this claim a lot in different contexts, and personally have never quite understood who it really talks about. It cannot talk about everyone, because there are many different kinds of people and work sectors. I'd expect the motivational priorities to exist on a continuum, on which some people are more motivated by money than others. Also, the "adequate compensation" varies from person to person; some are happy w…

You see it a lot because there has been extensive empirical research that led to this conclusion, which does get summarized in discussions to a point where nuances have been lost. If you earn a really low wage, a little bit of extra money buys a lot of happiness. If you earn quite decent, there's a point it doesn't buy more happiness at all.

For C-suites I imagine money is more of a symbol for power and prestige, though I know little about it.

And yes, everybody is unique and all that, but also probably not as special as they like to think. Social research is never generalizable to a point where you can say: all people are like this or that, nor does it have to be to make an interesting point. I also didn't qualify the statement in that way, because I don't know the numbers by heart. But I remember reading from the actual research that there was a large difference in what motivates people (it was not equal as you seem the suggest) and salary was quite low on the list.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this claim a lot in different contexts, and personally have never quite understood who it really talks about. It cannot talk about everyone, because there are many different kinds of people and work sectors. I'd expect the motivational priorities to exist on a continuum, on which some people are more motivated by money than others. Also, the "adequate compensation" varies from person to person; some are happy w…

The C-suite probably does it more for power, influence, impact than the money. Of course it's nice to have some more money, but that's not going to meaninfully change your life at that point. Of course if you don't have enough to live by, the main goal is going to be to earn more or just to survive Past that, more money helps remove day-to-day problems in life, at various levels. But it becomes less important than ot…

Exactly, I tried to sneak in that nuance with 'if adequately compensated', but apparently it was not clear enough.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#163
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the tech field but in the consulting space, both Crisp https://dna.crisp.se and Enspiral https://enspiral.com came up with interesting organisational structures that they've extensively documented.

The fact that enspiral keeps coming up as an example tells me that doing this right is really hard; if it were easy there would be more examples people would mention, no? edit: I hope it's clear I'm not trying to diminish the efforts, to the contrary! Here's also an interview with Richard Bartlett on the matter: https://codepodcast.com/posts/2018-09-17-richard-bartlett-on... And an episode from the General Intellect…

I think the difficulty in finding other examples is reflective of the "emergent"/"meta modern"/"systems thinking" space being extremely heady to this day. The people there are good at conceptualizing how to maintain a well running group horizontally, but growing one anew requires a different set of skills and traits. Chiefly knowing what's important right now, whereas the emergent thinkers seem to get lost in the weeds of their thoughts and big words.

That field is also, in my humble experience, in a bind. Very few people outside of the coach/consulting sphere seem to talk about this as fervently as they do. I think mass adoption will require the concepts to be attractive and simple to people who may not be ardent supporters of the cause quite yet.

There's also a whole contingent of people who have built orgs that already do this, they just don't advertise themselves and do their work.

I think the next step is to deeply integrate the concepts of Enspiral and such into organisational design tools. Something like murmur.com but with a super low conceptual barrier to entry, that makes it obvious what the next distributed leadership shift is for a given group. That's what I'm developing, if you're curious contact me :)

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting - so in your view Elon as the top person in Twitter hierarchy will not be able to change Twitter except very slowly ?

My view (not OP) is that Elon will break the company and get it to fail. He does not understand that Twitter is an ad driven business which also means PR is critical or you don't get advertisers. Most businesses that tried to pivot from ad driven to subscribers have failed. One that tried to do so in so dramatic a way? Never heard of it. Elon is not doing a simple management style change, he's changing everything wit…

That sounds like large changes? Even if Twitter fails?

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#165
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a startup, employees usually don't really have much influence even if they have shares, because each successive funding round dilutes the existing shares. Also, there's some significant differences in how shares work between cooperatives and corporations (at least in Germany, where I live). In a corporation, you get one vote per share, and shares can be freely traded once given out. In a cooperative, you only one…

Which "Rechtsform" would a cooperative be in Germany?

Genossenschaft

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

did you read the paper they shared?

Off-topic Rhetoric about productivity is unrelated to observations of political nastiness from covert narcissists responsible for polarizing toxic environments. Talented people with options tend to identify such situations, become disenchanted with being exploited, and eventually leave. Enhance your calm =)

sounds like nearly every job i've had while working for capitalist enterprises =)

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#167
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to counter this a bit -- if most of your coworkers want you gone, do you want to work there? Does it make sense to continue or would staying just mean continuing a toxic relationship for all parties? I think this just formalizes the quiet grumblings of people who who think "how is x person still here, they don't carry their weight" etc. I think a more important concern is how does an org ensure that people…

> I'm going to counter this a bit -- if most of your coworkers want you gone, do you want to work there? There are two things here, "competent", and "nice to work with". I've met co-workers that are perfectly nice people, I thought they do shit work but I wasn't the one paying them so I didn't really cared if they stayed working. Yeah they are negative for the company but I personally don't care, more than that, work…

So, I think your first point is something that still works with coops, but you have more ownership, so you have a greater say in whether or not somebody pleasant stays or somebody efficient stays. I think either are possible outcomes in coops depending on who is there.

For your second point, maybe that's okay? I think you're right with the tribal nature of people -- so if teams disagree, maybe the org isn't healthy and it's time to form two healthy orgs as part of a codified severance that doesn't result in layoffs or bankruptcy. I think the reason they don't is its expensive and difficult because you have to hire lawyers to figure it out after something is wrong. If tribes are mature enough to disagree and coexist, I'd call that healthy and worthy of continuing if both sides value each other.

I'm not sure many orgs codify severance. Typically this is something that partnerships account for but not corporations - corporations just fire people.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor theory of value has nothing to do with collecting profits and isn't concerned with who gets it. It argues that the economic value of a good or service is determined by the total amount of "socially necessary labor" required to produce it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value ) My point is that value is actually not determined by "socially necessary labor" but by supply and demand, even with…

Of course it has to do with profits and who gets it. That's the whole context for introducing the theory of value in Kapital, which one of us actually read while the other evidently skimmed a wikipedia page. Labour theory of value is not in anyway at odds with the idea of supply and demand. In fact, the whole idea of value in Kapital is derived from supply and demand. The labour theory of value states that the inhere…

Kek

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it has to do with profits and who gets it. That's the whole context for introducing the theory of value in Kapital, which one of us actually read while the other evidently skimmed a wikipedia page. Labour theory of value is not in anyway at odds with the idea of supply and demand. In fact, the whole idea of value in Kapital is derived from supply and demand. The labour theory of value states that the inhere…

Kek

Pretty much the quality of discourse I was expecting here. Next time try to stick to opining on topics you actually understand.

Re: Fired? Why cooperatives might be your next career choice in tech

#170
post #69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between a cooperative like you describe and a startup where employees are given shares?

Startups that give out shares are rare. Startups tend to give options. Options take years to accumulate, and don't give any significant rights by themselves, such as voting or profit share. Employees can typically only afford to exercise options at key company financing events, because they have to sell many of the resulting shares to cover the cost of exercising and cost of tax. Most startup employee recipients of o…

Outside of startups that might not amount to anything never it’s a pretty poor habit to sell shares to cover the cost of tax. It’s nearly always more beneficial to finance the tax due through other means including taking a loan even today after the base interest increase.

But the rest is more or less correct even when the options mature and you can exercise them you usually do not get voting rights it’s nearly always restricted shares.

Also note that unlike cooperatives there is also quite often restrictions on how much stock you can own as a regular employee in a public or even private company the employee shares in cooperatives usually have a different legal framework than regular company shares.

One of the key differences is quite often as someone already mentioned is that shares in cooperative grant a single voting right to a shareholder rather than per share.

You can also have some more complex tiered holding structures such as where all the employee held company shares are issued to a single entity that represents the employee shareholding collective and that entity then grants a single share to each employee, alternatively other models than direct shareholding can be used such as trusts where the trust holds the company shares and the trustees get voting rights.

Post reply on HN