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Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

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161–170 of 186 posts

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

analogously, would you also agree with the following statement? “How is the investigation of US president trump by the US congress an independent investigation…?”

Yes, the investigation is independent. What I believe you mean to suggest is that it is not impartial and lacks the adversarial natural of a US legal tribunal.

You are using a very non-colloquial understanding of "independent" and to what end?

Are they independent if going against him means you most likely will lose your job next election cycle?

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#162
post #11

If we object to a foreign country killing their own citizens, we can invade the foreign country and overthrow the ruler to make them stop killing (or threaten to invade unless they stop the killing). If we don't want to do that, we could try to put sanctions on them. If we can't do that either, there's not much we can do.

> If we can't do that either, there's not much we can do In case this is serious, the Saudis have a lot of stuff in America our courts could seize.

And then they seize american assets in Saudi Arabia. Not a fun path.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#163
post #14

Well, America’s superpower status rests on being the reserve currency for petroleum imports so, in reality, KSA has America in a vise. The US can’t do anything to antagonise KSA because the direct result will be KSA accepting currencies other than the dollar for petrol, which will lower the global demand for dollars, leading to devaluation of the USD leading to economic calamity. I’m sure MBS, Biden, Trump, Obama, Pu…

> America’s superpower status rests on being the reserve currency for petroleum imports No, it doesn’t. America’s economy and thus voters like cheap oil. America’s massive consumer and industrial base underwrites its currency’s power.

Both Russia and China have been pushing to do their oil settlements in a basket of currencies and not just the dollar. This should tell you all you need to know why KSA has the US right where it wants them.

The British Pound is a powerful currency backed by an industrial base and a consumer led economy everyone wants to sell into. EUR is the same way. But neither of them are superpowers because no other country needs the GBP or EUR like they need the USD.

Countries all around the world keep USD in their current account balance even if they barely import stuff from the US because every country needs oil and oil can only be bought with dollars.

Say your high school bully demanded 10 SchruteBucks every day to leave you alone at lunch. And the only supplier of SchruteBucks in the whole world was this paper salesman called Dwight Schrute.

Quite evidently, your entire life would revolve around making sure Dwight was still willing to give you SchruteBucks just so that your bully would stay off your back for one more day.

That bully is KSA. Dwight is the US. The kid sucking up to Dwight is all the other countries in the world.

When Putin rants about a unipolar world, this is what he is talking about.

It’s an unjust world where we can’t afford to antagonise the US without also running the risk of not being able to buy petrol to run our economy.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait until The Saudis figure out that they're a desert, and maybe instead of stupid line cities they should be building solar farms and long-range international transmission lines.

iirc long range transfer of electricity is extremely expensive and difficult. They might be able to supply power locally, but they wouldn’t be able to export to the west. Unless they used it to power manufacture of other fuel sources like green hydrogen.

According to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Lo...

"As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for DC transmission was 7,000 kilometres (4,300 miles). For AC it was 4,000 kilometres (2,500 miles), though US transmission lines are substantially shorter."

The distance from Saudi Arabia to Greece, by road, is roughly 2389 km according to Google Maps (albeit passing through Jordan, Syria and Turkey). As the crow flies or using an undersea cable it would be even shorter, so a monumental project but it could be done. Would require striking a deal with the Jordanians and Israelis, but that's well with Saudi capabilities should they choose to do so.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait until The Saudis figure out that they're a desert, and maybe instead of stupid line cities they should be building solar farms and long-range international transmission lines.

Doubt they’d replace their current weight with that… If what you say becomes technically feasible, there will be plenty of other countries competing with them, including their neighbors and Africa.

But none with trillions of investment capital sitting around. Building a long-range renewable grid from scratch isn't easy. Morocco has a bit of a head start, but last I read they're still focusing on their domestic grid.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#167

I really hope the world can accelerate it's adoption of energy sources that will replace oil. They aren't without their own flaws but besides Norway, I can't think of place where oil hasn't corrupted society in some major way.

I think the problem here is humans being (more easily) corruptible and capable of evil when lots of power and money are involved. I don't think oil specifically has something to do with it.

Although I agree with hoping we move on from depending on SA resources. (And I say this as a devout Muslim)

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#168

It's just how it works unfortunately. Imagine if the whole world should justifiably call for arresting three decades of US presidents and generals over all the murders and deaths in the middle east, how would that work? Would you agree to it?

The war in the Middle East is tough because it was congress who gave the power to invade, but the president also had the ability to not invade as the head of the DoD.

I’m fairly certain if GWB didn’t invade Iraq/Afghanistan he would have been impeached due to the fervour in the USA at that time. Looking back many agree that invading the Middle East was a mistake, but at the time there was only one Congress person (Barbara Lee) who voted against giving powers to invade, and that person was deeply ostracized for their choice.

Invading the Middle East was an atrocity, but who is responsible? The American public? The president? Congress?

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#169
post #156

I think the headline is a bit misleading. "given" immunity to me implied that there was some deal or something where the US government proactively gave MBS immunity. What happened was the US State Dept determined he had immunity due to his current role as Saudi Arabia PM. Thus, my understanding is that this would be standard diplomatic immunity, no? And if MBS ever stopped being PM he would lose that immunity, as MBS…

I find this obsession with 1 or 4 people obscene while millions are ignored. We invaded Libya and left behind a failed state where millions live amid violent gangs, but we spent more ink about 4 Americans in Benghazi than the millions who were affected by our policies. It's almost like we don't care. Why do people write far more about Khashoggi, rather than the millions in Yemen? That should be more than enough reaso…

Hate to break it to you, but we don't care. We never have. "We" being the "enlightened west" in general. Study enough history and it becomes pretty clear. Governments only take humanitarian action against evil when there's a clear threat to their interests (Ukraine), a perceived strategic opportunity (Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya) or there's little/no risk in the confrontation (Somalia/Libya). We have a hard enough time getting people to care about their immediate neighbors, I'd be surprised if 1/100 Americans could even find Yemen on a map. Throw institutions and economics/ideologies on top and the international good of the common people always takes a back seat.

And lest people think I'm just shitting on America right now, look at the deals Finland/Sweden are making with Turkey for NATO membership. The vaunted, enlightened, socially democratic, supposedly-closest-thing-to-the-Star-Trek-Federation Nordics are screwing the Kurds for their own interests.

No institution outside of charities/NGOs has ever functioned from a standpoint of moral purity. Sure many have claimed to when a convenient narrative was available, but no nation that implemented a "morality first" platform would survive for long. They simply wouldn't be able to strike deals with most other nations on moral grounds, and would turn themselves into a nicer, gentler North Korea. I guess Bhutan comes the closest, but aside from their use as a buffer zone/chess piece between the Indians and Chinese, no one outside of some human-interest bloggers cares about Bhutan (if I have to hear about their happiness index one more time...). Europe's various moral stances are the result of American strategic overwatch and a globalized economic system where they didn't have to secure their own resources. Take those away and the morality will dry up awful fast (where do you think the old European empires came from?)

As for the Saudis and Yemen specifically, I think most Americans in the abstract would agree we should be sanctioning the Saudis... right up until they learn that means gas shortages and insane prices at the pump. For most Americans the cost of gas directly impacts their families' livelihoods, and people will always pick their own family's welfare over the welfare of strangers half a world away. Sure there's a minority that's willing to sacrifice regardless, and sure it would be nice if the whole world was that way. But it isn't, not even close. So we have to deal with what we have, and Yemen, among other places, is screwed.

Re: Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing

#170
post #81

It's just how it works unfortunately. Imagine if the whole world should justifiably call for arresting three decades of US presidents and generals over all the murders and deaths in the middle east, how would that work? Would you agree to it?

Well the world did not mind going after Milosevich for example.

And it was good that we did go after him! But the issue is our own western leaders and generals walking free when they have the blood of hundreds of thousands innocent lives on their hands.
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