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We should have Markdown-rendered websites

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161–170 of 351 posts

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#161
post #48

This doesn't really make sense, for a couple reasons... There are many flavors of markdown. We'd need a standards body, compatibility suites, etc., and for all the browser vendors to adopt it. Meanwhile, markdown is designed to transform to HTML, which browsers already render. Adding a markdown-to-html plugin/step to your web server or publishing process is not exactly the most burdensome thing, relative to everythin…

I get this, but OTOH it is IMO best to distribute digital artifacts in the format that is most useful for editing or creating derivative works. This is the free software philosophy but also a societal good. Many of us learned HTML and web technologies by reading the source code of websites, and we've closed that door behind us with all of the build steps that turn our actual code into a computer-readable-only mess wh…

This is actually horrible for society as it implies that the Web Browser will have to implement a billion different parsers for all of the separate file formats it supports, which not only causes it to have a ridiculously large attack surface but pretty much implies there will only be a couple serious separate implementations (if even that soon...) as it is just too difficult for even a large company now to build a browser.

Meanwhile, it doesn't even ensure the property of being able to view source, as people can and do obfuscate things they don't want you to see, and if people want you to see the source code there is nothing preventing them from making that entirely pipeline visible, including, but certainly not limited to, shipping a trivial markdown parser to the browser instead of doing the conversion on a server.

In a perfect world, the browser should have simply provided something like canvas hooked up to something like WebAssembly, and we should have provided for everyone a trivial markup file format rendered that people could include by default and a handful of graphic file format implementations that could be easily mix-and-matched to pull just the ones people wanted into their site.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#162
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. There were tons of things that made the web easy to write before FB. That is not what made FB successful. It was a combination of a lot of little features plus the big innovation that your profile had to be your real life identity early on. That was the thing prior social networks didn't do. It enabled the uniquely Facebook experience of being able to find past friends and more distant family.

What technology IN REALITY, raw numbers, got more people to "type something into their computer for the purpose of multiple other people to read?" Facebook, and nothing else much comes close. (Again, I say this as someone who mostly hates it)

Getting people to do something is very different from making it easy. There's overlap but that overlap is just a fraction.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#164
post #31

I mean it _sounds_ good, but how will we cram a million ads down user's throats and measure every twitch of their input devices? It's almost as though the author is suggesting that web site proprietors might be more interested in "serving content" than "driving engagement" which I find disturbing and upsetting. /s

haha that's definitely a big component of it all. But the engaged clickable web is anyways dead. This post is a static HTML file hosted on IPFS with no back links to my carefully curated blog and media presence. No branding. It's because I've accepted that people's bullshit-radar is sensitive towards overly optimized engagement content. Rather I want my text to be read and those that care will anyways online-search m…

I wasn't going to read that but I did. I kind of agree, but it's "social media" that's dying not the internet.

The social media has gone absolutely toxic in an frantic attempt to maximize revenue per user.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#165

Deliver as markdown, but with a single line header: Foo [[insert your markdown here]] A document delivered as pure markdown, that will get spidered by any search engine that renders JavaScript (or that reads the document as text), and you don’t need to ask anyone to change anything. HTML has no closing end tag, so markdown can be free-form and securely include any unescaped ”’ characters (raw HTML code) you need into…

What is needing then, is adding the "type" attribute in command, that browsers with their own implementation can optionally use it instead in order to render with the user's settings if desired.

However, that still forces you to serve HTML, so it is not good. My idea is adding a "Interpreter" response header, which indicates which files can be used to render files (documents, audio, video, pictures, etc) that the client implementation does not understand already. The end user can also specify their own overrides, if desired.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#167
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CommonMark seems like the obvious choice: https://commonmark.org/ It isn't as supported as I'd like, but it does exist and I've encountered it "in the wild" a few times, so it's not just some guy typing away on a website either.

After all these years, I still haven't found an important argument in favor of CommonMark. As I point out every time someone presents it as the answer, it doesn't handle things like math, so you still need to use unstandardized extensions, making the whole thing pointless.

The argument is that if you disqualify everything for not having $FEATURE, where $FEATURE varies from person to person, you have also essentially disqualified markdown entirely. As the saying goes, everyone uses only 10% of Microsoft Word, but everyone uses a different 10% of Microsoft Word. Much the same thing applies to this case for much the same reasons. If your standard is going to be "I want everything in any variant of Markdown ever and also any plugin ever", you will end up with something that is just as complicated as HTML, only different this time. (Possibly even more complicated than HTML.) CommonMark is a decent solution to "I want to use Markdown", if you're willing to take the simplification.

Note in this case I don't think there's anything wrong with refusing the simplification. It's just that if that is your set of your requirements, you've disqualified Markdown entirely. Personally, I think that is the state of the situation; Markdown can't do this. Markdown and all of its family members and close friends intrinsically work by reducing the problem. If you refuse to reduce the problem, you've refused to use Markdown. That is not a moral judgment; that's an engineering judgment. From the position the major browsers operate in, they will never attain anywhere near enough agreement on this to ever implement it without it simply becoming another monster of its own as everybody piles in with all their favorite extensions.

I have some websites that run with Hugo, which is in principle based on Markdown, but if necessary you can have raw HTML pages or other things too. This is actually the ideal; use Markdown when it makes sense, use other things when it doesn't, and thus, neither of those two things has to carry the burdens of the other side. This is the real and best solution, honestly, and it also has the advantage that it's here now. Use whatever flavor you want, where ever you want, whenever you want, today. I'm doing this and I don't see any advantage to trying to convince the browser to do this. I have a deploy step regardless of what I do, so it's no skin off my nose whether that step deploys my pages raw or there's a render step in addition to the deploy.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#168
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could have a higher level language and tooling that transpiles everything to all known markdown flavors and bundles them all. But I guess one of these 31 flavors already does that.

I would be on-board with this as long as we compile everything into WebAssembly with Emscripten first

[deleted]

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#169

There's Gopher, Gemini, a myriad of static site generators that render markdown... I like the idea of my browser rendering markdown. But it's not going to solve the problem, as long as the same client application that renders documents can also render web applications, people looking to bait you with a document into running software on your machine will just publish web applications with some text inside of interest…

While I believe you, and that the currently state is too messy, nevertheless it is possible for some implementations to be more limited or to have options for the user to disable some features if desired.

It is true, there are other protocols and other file formats they are good for different purposes, and you should not try to use one for everything. (In my opinion, this is true of Unicode as well; it is messy and doesn't work well to use Unicode for everything, either, nor HTML or HTTPS for everything, or cell phones for everything, or the government for everything, etc.)

It would also be possible to serve text/gemini files with HTTP too, and I also have modified my browser to be able to display them (also local files too), this is not common.

Re: We should have Markdown-rendered websites

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

—I’d say it’s the other way around isn’t it? Wouldn’t Markdown be a subset of HTML, since all markdown can be expressed in HTML but not all HTML can be expressed in Markdown?— Edit: Markdown can contain HTML that gets meaningfully interpreted as markup as well. I’d also say HTML is not difficult to write, even for someone new to the concept. I don’t think anyone making their GeoCities homepage was too strained learni…

As far as I’m aware, you can write any HTML in Markdown, and it will be rendered normally. So Markdown can indeed contain any and all HTML. HTML can’t contain Markdown at all - a ### in HTML does nothing but a hello in Markdown does exactly what you expect it to.

If you think about it in terms of syntax, then sure. Markdown is a superset of HTML. I think it's much more meaningful to compare their semantics instead. From that point of view, Markdown is a nicer, more human-readable syntax for a very small subset of html, plus an escape hatch to reach the rest of HTML using conventional syntax.
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