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An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

katedowninglaw.com

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Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#161

A hypothetical question: imagine a filmmaker, who had studied a lot of obviously copyrighted movies by famous renowned directors. This means he has trained his neural network using their copyrighted licensed content. Does he breach copyright when he composes and films a scene? Are visual quotes copyright theft? Homages? Did George Lucas infringe copyright when he was borrowing compositions from "Triumph of the will"?

Philosophical bullshitting aside (and it really is philosophical bullshitting), I just genuinely don't care if a human or a machine "think" or "learn" in the same way.

I don't want Github or any other megacorp-backed entity abusing the open source community in the way micro$oft is here, it's as simple as that. If they wish to train it on entirely proprietary Microsoft code, then by all means go nuts, but to take the work of open source projects and to hide behind the pretense of the mathematical model behind the A"I" learning something is simply ridiculous to me.

I find it quite curious that they're not doing that (training it on their own codebase). Perhaps they're afraid of their little intelligence spitting out proprietary code verbatim like it's been shown to do many times with licensed open source code.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#162

Hmmm. I'm interested in the GitHub ToS, which (if I understand correctly) basically says that GitHub and it's affiliates (MS) can use anything you post on GitHub to improve their service. What if I build an AGPL licenced service, using GitHub to coordinate development. According to the ToS MS could offer a version my service because I posted the code on GitHub, and they are using it to improve their service to me. Ac…

OP here. If you own the copyright to a work, you can license it in any way you like. You can offer it to some people under a commercial license and to other people under an open source license. Many entities practices dual (or tri or whatever) licensing. When you post things on GitHub, you are essentially dual licensing your work. You're providing it under a very broad license to GitHub and you are providing it under an OSS license (or whatever you like) to other GitHub users. Neither license takes precedence. One license applies to one group of people and the other license applies to the other group of people.

This is very similar to what happens when you sign a contributor agreement before contributing code to an open source project. When you sign the contributor agreement, you're granting a very broad license to your work to the project maintainers. They can then license your work out under any license they want. But likewise, because you are not granting them an exclusive license, you're free to put your contribution license out into the world under any license of your choosing separate and apart from the project that you contributed it to.

Technically, I think the scenario you're describing with AGPL code may well be possible and legal. But practically, I think people would stop using GitHub if they felt that doing so would lead to GitHub/Microsoft undercutting their projects, stealing their customers, or essentially stripping the project of any AGPL obligations. I think that from a business perspective, they're really gambling on the idea that developers will see Copilot as a big boon rather than a value suck. Time will tell whether their gamble has paid off.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are not neural networks, that's just a thesis. Even novelists do not sit all day long in a closed room reading other people's work and then do a collage of what they've read. Otherwise no books would have been written in the first place. Cut the AI off humans' work, let it interact with the real world and see what it produces. It will be nothing. Once (if ever?) an AI is capable of producing an actual original…

> Cut the AI off humans' work, let it interact with the real world and see what it produces. It will be nothing. That "experiment" could just as well be done on humans, though, cut them off of any work that any human has done before and you may get simple cave paintings, if you're lucky.

Well let's see the A"I" come up with the equivalent of a cave painting in full isolation, then.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? What is this definition of "learning" that would exclude machine learning?

I'm not going to have an epistemological debate on what is knowledge or skill. Humans are more lossy and able to bring in much more varied knowledge and experience in ways a computer cannot. Ai/ml is not artificial general intelligence. It's a mathematical model.

I don't think we need epistemology here, and can instead keep it at the level of semantics. According to the definitions I'm use to, an AI/ML system is not just a mathematical model, but rather a concrete implementation of an information processing system, which when treated as a black box also applies to a brain.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#165
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

License takes precedence when you don’t own the copyright. ToS takes precedence when legally allowed and you do own the copyright.

ToS regularly gets thrown out in Europe if considered unfair. Much of OSS is written in the rest of the world. (Of course the GitHub ToS do not allow any CoPilot activities in the first place.)

The blog post articulates how GitHub TOS does allow CoPilot.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their service is hosting code, not writing code. That's why it's GitHub, not CodeScribe ( or something)

It’s definitely more than just hosting code - GitHub offers issue/PR management, light weight project management, an online IDE for collaborative editing and CI services at least. Arguing that GitHub provides services that aim to improve developer/development team productivity is not a stretch. And arguing that ML-assisted development support is part of that definition isn’t particularly far out either.

They're also allowed to add new services anytime they'd like.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article addresses this in a number of ways. For example, > That rings a bit like the Facebook memes of yesteryear promising users that if they just copy and paste these magical sentences onto their timelines, then Facebook won’t be able to do something or other with their data or accounts.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The only legal way you can use copyrighted code is due to the license attached to it by the copyright holder. If a license specifically prohibits copying the code for a purpose, then it is a violation of the copyright to copy the code for that purpose. You have no other legal way to do it. These aren't magic words, they are legal obligations. Ok, well maybe legal obligations are…

> The only legal way you can use copyrighted code is due to the license attached to it by the copyright holder.

This is wrong on so many levels.

1. Copyright grants a limited set of rights to the copyright holder. "Use" typically doesn't fall into that set. Everyone has the right to "use" copyrighted material for any purpose that isn't some kind of copy or distribution.

2. Even when we consider uses which are actually covered by copyright, a license is not the only way to legally copy the material. Fair use exists.

3. There is no such thing as "the license attached to it". Licenses do not "attach" to copyrighted works. A license is an individual agreement between the copyright holder and each and every person who wants to use the material (within the scope of copyright rights and outside of fair use). Those agreements can be different in every instance, if the licensor and licensee have so agreed.

The only thing a LICENSE file or other similar way of indicating a license on code does is make a (binding) offer to license the work under the specified terms to all comers. Once anyone actually has a license by any means, including a separately negotiated license, then the LICENSE file no longer has anything to do with them or their use of the material. In the case of github, they have separately negotiated (by making a binding offer of their own in their ToS) a license to use the material for the provision of their service; therefore the LICENSE file has nothing to do with them (unless they want to use the offered license instead of the one they negotiated, and they haven't negotiated away the right to use the license offered in the LICENSE file).

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#168

HN is so insanely frustrating, so many comments demonstrate that the user didn't read this article at all. Just immediately jumping into a "but what about this argument that I made?".

Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Yeah, I'm aware, this is just so extreme at this point it feels worth pointing out.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#169
post #14

What’s the point of licenses if TOS overrides it?

Nothing is being overridden.

You have apparently misunderstood copyright licenses as being something that attaches to a copyrighted work and now must be respected by all users of that work. But that is totally incorrect.

Licenses are individual agreements between copyright holders (or licensees who have been granted the right to re-license) and people who want to exercise one of the rights normally withheld under copyright. A LICENSE file is nothing but an offer to grant a license with specified terms to anyone who might want to use the work, without having to nag the licensor to sign an agreement. The existence of that offer doesn't have anything to do with any other agreement the licensor and a (potential) licensee might make.

In the GitHub case, GitHub has negotiated a different license with the uploader. (That negotiation happened to take the form of a ToS, which is another kind of binding offer.) The LICENSE file has nothing to do with it. It hasn't been overridden, it's just irrelevant. It doesn't add or subtract any terms from the separate and distinct license GitHub negotiated.

Re: An open source lawyer’s view on the copilot class action lawsuit

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article addresses this in a number of ways. For example, > That rings a bit like the Facebook memes of yesteryear promising users that if they just copy and paste these magical sentences onto their timelines, then Facebook won’t be able to do something or other with their data or accounts.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The only legal way you can use copyrighted code is due to the license attached to it by the copyright holder. If a license specifically prohibits copying the code for a purpose, then it is a violation of the copyright to copy the code for that purpose. You have no other legal way to do it. These aren't magic words, they are legal obligations. Ok, well maybe legal obligations are…

You give GitHub the right to use anything you upload to improve their service. What you're trying to say is after you create your GitHub account and agree to that, you're posting magic words(OSS License) that somehow binds GitHub which already has a more permissive license that you granted to them. It's articulated in the blog post.
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