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Suicide

raganwald.posterous.com

161–170 of 291 posts

Re: Suicide

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel terribly sorry that you feel this way. I don't want to mess with this kind of stuff on something this important but, speaking from my own experience, and I do understand this feeling very well, I'd say that this is evidence that the sadness and ideation comes from inside and that the road to resolving it comes from working on that rather than outside things. I've come to realise this quite strongly myself over…

For many people, what you say rings true, but it's dangerous to imply that that these feelings are purely a product of someone's thinking and that they can fix them on their own. There are people who, no matter how much they sit down and think things through, try and sort out their problems, etc, are going to feeling depressed -- likely due to chemical imbalances and structural differences in the brain. Thinking abou…

"There are people who, no matter how much they sit down and think things through, try and sort out their problems, etc, are going to feeling depressed"

Although you're probably right, it's also dangerous to promote that viewpoint. A depressed person accepting themselves as inevitably and irreversibly depressed is not productive, even if that's the case. It's not analogous to being gay where you can accept it and live a happy life.

I suppose accepting that you're permanently depressed could help you cope with it, but I'd be scared of having people assume thats the case before exhausting all other options.

Re: Suicide

#162
So heres my experience with this whole topic:

When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so were pretty emotionally damaging. Somehow I internalized this expectation, and it only worsened all of it. There were a lot of things that I didn't know how to do well: make close friends, talk to girls, ask for help. A lot of this was probably BS at first, and in retrospect everyone went through it. I know that for me there was a weird feedback loop tho, reinforced by craziness in my family, where they would push away my friends, and would ridicule me for needing help.

Anyway, all that led to this scenario where I felt even more alone an trapped. As others were working through this stuff, I couldn't figure out how to even start going with it. I wasn't a "forever alone" kind of guy, I stuttered through this stuff, but not in a particularly meaningful way. Not existing sounded amazing. I contemplated it off and on. At one point I had a serious sit-down with myself about the topic of suicide. I went over the pros, the cons, ways to do it, the consequences to others and so on. I decided, this was an option. I also realized, I only get to choose it once.

I found this realization very comforting.

Ever since, I have been slightly annoyed at the "suicide is not the answer" stuff I read. I get pissed at the people who deride it. I hate the people who talk about it as not an option. It is an option, but a pretty drastic one. (Raganwald: I like your stuff usually, but your blog post kind of annoyed me, even tho it's not terrible advice... it just doesn't work for me - nothing personal)

Since this realization, I have gone through some pretty down times. As I mention above, I'm a bit socially/emotionally challenged, and sometimes I just feel like I'm getting nowhere in the world of people. I see them over there doing their thing, and I just don't understand how it works. I occasionally even see them not as people, but the same way I would see a group of dogs or other animals interacting -- I notice their behaviours, I try to figure out WTF it is all about, but I just can't relate. This really bothers me when it happens. Other times I get really down over messing up with people, or not being a top 50 programmer, or not being 4 hr marathoner, or whatever else my perfectionism is going on about. In all these cases, if it's bad enough, I get this thought:

"You can just give up. You can stop existing."

I don't shy away from it, I don't push it down, that seems to make it worse. I'm not scared of it, I welcome it. Like I said above, it is a comforting thought to me. It reminds me I have some power in the world, no matter how fucked up things are at the moment. Afterwards, the next thought comes:

"You only get to do this once. Is this the time?"

And I get to decide if it makes sense. And I only need to decide for today. Do I want to do this today? Sure things are fucked up, but I sure would exit in a pretty shitty situation: things undone, house a mess, porn not properly deleted from the computer, finances not in order, etc. So I won't do it today. Maybe I'll start getting ready to do it. Tomorrow I can decide again.

Sometimes this goes on for a day. Sometimes it goes on for a week. But the very act of contemplating it seems to have a healing power for me. Now that I know I can at least do this, and I'm going to do it right, it reminds me that I can maybe do stuff. Getting ready for it, reminds me more that maybe I'm not so trapped, and there is a path forward, paradoxically getting me to the point where I usually put aside the silliness after a while, with a freshly organized set of life surroundings. Sometimes it's more than a while, but for me, this works.

I'm putting this out here, for the people who are contemplating suicide, and somehow reading these comments. Contemplate away, I won't begrudge you that. I'd like to remind you that this is a one-time deal tho, so if you're going to do it, make sure this is the right answer for you. If you are unsure, wait a while, see what else you can do also - the option doesn't go away, in fact this basic option is the greatest power you have, don't squander it.

Also: after this article leaves the front page, I'm going to delete this post, because while I think it is important, I don't know that having these words public for posterity is a wise decision.

Re: Suicide

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very much like you. Have you considered, given your minimal value of anything, that the costs associated with recreational drugs don't apply to you? I started (ab)using marijuana this year (daily). It makes life worth it for me. At the very least it's worth considering as an alternative to death. Its easy to hide. Most the people in my life don't know. You can vaporize to minimize the health effects (also bad br…

All three of you are incredible, wonderful, collections of atoms, the chances of whose formation and resultant animation may have been a brilliant fluke in a huge universe. Your years are 120 or less, and then the universe will reclaim you as its own. For the universe, the span of your life should have been not even the fluttering of an eyelash before a blink. From a cosmic perspective, the existence of our whole gal…

an incredibly profound post. The rarity of life really is what makes it so precious

Re: Suicide

#164

What do you tell to someone who's decided that it's really quite pointless to continue working and living because the inevitable fate of the Universe coupled with the seeming inability to achieve sustained happiness? To them living to make a difference is pointless because practically nothing survives Solar death, and nothing survives a maximizing of Universal entropy. To them living for themselves is pointless becau…

Death is just as pointless. Considering that you have all of eternity to be dead, it seems like a mistake to cut your brief life short, in case something changes in your perspective during the rest of it.

You don't "be dead", its not an active state, an ongoing experience.

You imply that the person would miss out and regret it, but they woudn't be missing out because they wouldn't be.

Suicidal people reading this and thinking I'm arguing in favour of it stop right there - I'm on a phone and can't write a full nuanced answer. But I think this is an important point which all the "permanent solution to a temporary problem" people don't really consider, and should, to see why its an inneffective exhirtation.

Re: Suicide

#165

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

This is powerful stuff, thank you for posting.

Re: Suicide

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I am not a professional and there’s no particular reason that what I write is going to be helpful, and as others have pointed out, such appeals might sometimes be harmful. In the end, my moral dilemna feels like the “Politician’s Fallacy:” - Something must be done. - This is something. - Therefore we must do it. But doing the wrong thing is often worse than doing nothing at all.

This feels like one of those comments that I'm going to write with good intentions and come away with one downvote and no replies. Still; Your post is CYA advice. It's the socially acceptable least you could do - to encourage talking to a professional. not to imply that you owe more, or practically that you could do more, but... You want to do something You are afraid of making it worse Those constraints lead to a no…

If you've been folowing my internet writing since 2004, you will notce that I have done many related things. It's a false *-chotomy to think that there is only one post you can make and that threfore it s critical that it be the one best possible post, and just do that.

Re: Suicide

#167

What do you tell to someone who's decided that it's really quite pointless to continue working and living because the inevitable fate of the Universe coupled with the seeming inability to achieve sustained happiness? To them living to make a difference is pointless because practically nothing survives Solar death, and nothing survives a maximizing of Universal entropy. To them living for themselves is pointless becau…

You could start with the lesswrong.com article http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/

Re: Suicide

#168
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I find myself having similar thoughts I reread Willa Cather's story, "Paul's Case", here's the relevant part, the very end: "He stood watching the approaching locomotive, his teeth chattering, his lips drawn away from them in a frightened smile; once or twice he glanced nervously sidewise, as though he were being watched. When the right moment came, he jumped. As he fell, the folly of his haste occurred to h…

Okay, so the last few years I've had time and means to travel, and I'd like to comment somewhat on a perspective I gained while doing so. The list you gave- I've done all of those things. Well, change Machu Picchu to Pompeii and Somalia to the Congo. I realize your list was not comprehensive- but let me realize the spirit of your post and say I've done a large subset of the "things I'd like to do before I die," save…

I feel like this sometimes, but usually when I'm doing something that I'm really into (I mountain bike, snowboard, wakeboard, road bike, swim, climb, kayak, hike, powerkite, jet-ski, water ski, water tube, motorcycle, and hopefully soon fly, white-water raft, autocross or rally, and skydive) I'm not thinking about being sad, but I definitely get sad during great moments.

I was at the Grand Canyon a few summers ago and I just sat on the edge out past where the fences are where only a few sad kids dare to go. I'd be lying if I said I didn't think at least a few times about jumping, even if it was the most beautiful place I'd ever seen. I felt like the canyon itself was a metaphor for my life in a way; huge, full of possibility, complex, but still far from inhabitable.

The helicopter ride just before that was crazy fun, though. It was something like $240 and it was worth every penny (I was making about $140 a week at the time working in retail). I can't put into words how it felt to have my first view of the canyon be from inside a flimsy carbon fiber helicopter that was trying to tear itself apart going over the edge of the canyon at what felt like a 90* angle and jumping from ~200ft above the national forest to about a mile up above the canyon floor. I highly recommend it, if you ever have the chance.

For the curious:

Before you dip in: http://pics.seanp2k.com/phx/DCP_5441+%28Large%29_exposure.JP... & http://pics.seanp2k.com/phx/DCP_5430+%28Large%29_exposure.JP...

During: http://pics.seanp2k.com/phx/DCP_5495+%28Large%29_exposure.JP... & http://pics.seanp2k.com/phx/DCP_5496+%28Large%29_exposure.JP...

After: http://pics.seanp2k.com/phx/DCP_5578+%28Large%29_exposure.JP... & http://pics.seanp2k.com/phx/DCP_5545+%28Large%29_exposure.JP...

I figure that there will be more moments in the future like that too, and I guess that's what I live for, just to see everything there is to see. My 9 day for-no-real-reason-with-nothing-planned vacation to San Francisco was also great, and I met more awesome people DOING STUFF there in a week than I have here (Detroit/Metro area, Michigan) in years, which is why I'm moving out there in a few months.

I probably have many more stories about majestic woods that I've biked and hiked through, hidden passages on rivers in a kayak, etc. but what I'm getting at is that life is an adventure, so go explore, because the worst thing you can do is live a boring life and die old without having done anything (risky|exciting|challenging|scary). Talk to the girl. Go to that party even though you're already in bed. Apply for that perfect long-shot work-from-home job. The worst failure is not even trying.

And I know how hard trying is.

Re: Suicide

#169

So heres my experience with this whole topic: When I was very young, I remember feeling trapped in life. It wasn't a particularly terrible life, but not a particularly great one either. There were times when I just didn't want it. As I got older, I spent a lot of time mildly depressed. There were expectations I couldn't live up to, it seemed my family wanted me to be perfect, and the repercussions for not being so we…

Please don't delete it.

I also felt Reg was off the mark (although perhaps not to the extent that you do), but that's why i messaged him what i thought was the real issue. I think it's important to communicate what that feeling is.

So many people misunderstand the actual nature of suicidal tendencies. They think that it's just about someone feeling alone, or unhappy or whatever. But those feelings all have "normal" analogues such that a person that's never felt seriously depressed will misunderstand what that hole is truly like on the inside.

True depression is knowing that not being is an option equally viable to being.

And that's a feeling, or an understanding of the world that can't be reasoned with. All others can do is make the choice of "not being" less convenient of a choice than "being". Whether that's trying to make a connection and rekindle one's interests in something, or dragging someone out to do something (which should be done carefully), or simply being present. Regardless i don't think people appreciate what it is they can or should do to keep someone else moored/tethered to the reality where being vs not being is an equal proposition.

Re: Suicide

#170
post #16

This is important, and startup founders are especially vulnerable. The expectations, both from the world and founders themselves, are often impossibly high - afterall there can be only one facebook and one Google. Failure in startups isn't the same as failure in a corporate job. Startups are so much harder that if you make it to the first line of code you've already beat 90% of the people that want to do a startup. I…

mixmax, these are very reassuring words for someone at a very vulnerable point in their startup. I tried, its positive, be positive and something will work fine. Or even a more realistic realization if you are failing too that it is fine to fail.

But I think the hardest problem we all founders face is to find the person who can share the views and motivate the right way. Most of the time, someone consoling would also be irritating, you just want to crib (mostly) and you will get over it and start working the next day.

It is almost ironically, sometimes, you just know what you want to hear and you are just waiting for someone to come and tell that so that you are fine.

The problem is not able to comprehend how everything would turn out as there would be tens of big and small issues at hand any given day and getting clarity is a big part of not feeling negative.

I have been fighting with all the bad vibes in office offlate and it is terrible especially as a single founder with a 7 ppl team. We haven't launched our product - it has been 1 year since our first engineer. It is already negative as you don't have anything out there and now you put in pressure things are going to break worse, ppl don't want to put in extra hours. It is hard to pump in positive energy. Fearing I will give feedback wrong way or push people too hard at this time I became reclusive. Few people own up, leaving them on their own track helps but it is almost a problem as you got to pull it off as a team and for that I have to speak up, bring them together with lots of energy. It is a hard time right now.

Hoping the system copes.

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