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I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

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Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#161

Post by xeromal »

breput wrote: post #9

The electrical code has evolved not only to enrich electricians, but also to provide a safer environment for the occupants of the buildings. So noting/complaining about having to upgrade an 82 year old rental duplex to modern standards because of electric car charging is a little disingenuous. That wiring is already past the end of life and ought to be updated for the safety of the occupants. But I wouldn't be surpri…

I don't think they were complaining until they realized they may be liable for upgrading the neighborhood's infrastructure too which seems ridiculous.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#162

Post by bdcravens »

breput wrote: post #9

The electrical code has evolved not only to enrich electricians, but also to provide a safer environment for the occupants of the buildings. So noting/complaining about having to upgrade an 82 year old rental duplex to modern standards because of electric car charging is a little disingenuous. That wiring is already past the end of life and ought to be updated for the safety of the occupants. But I wouldn't be surpri…

Note that states can always override NEC requirements. For example, Texas overrode the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers. (Learned this when wiring my garage with a 30A plug for my EV)

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#163

Post by bdcravens »

chiph wrote: post #133

I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the city's demand that they relocate the electrical panels. This means that all the interior wiring in the house now has to run to the new panel location - a huge expense. I'm not sure why they couldn't just move only the meters to be more accessible to the power company & firefighters[1] and then run a longer service cable from there to the original panels. That woul…

> a tenant running a homemade 240v cable to the outlet for the electric clothes dryer and manually plugging/unplugging back & forth

Most level 2 chargers have a 20+ foot cord. I did the plug/unplug thing while I waited to install the plug in my garage, but my dryer is just inside of the door to the garage. Perhaps you're talking about a much longer run, but even with a proper extension cord (often less than $100), it should be fine.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#164

Post by bdcravens »

albrewer wrote: post #107
oceanplexian wrote: post #41

I lived in a ranch-style home in California. Literally added a new breaker, ran 30’ of Romex rated for 50A, and wired up an EV charger in about 2-3 hours. It’s not rocket science. Now, obviously some panels don’t have the space, or the service to the house isn’t enough amps but if that’s a case why aren’t you upgrading a 50 year-old electrical panel anyway? It sounds like OP had a bunch of deferred electrical mainten…

If you don't own or didn't use a torque wrench to tighten the connections and this was awhile ago, I would go and re-torque them. Properly connecting these types of connections requires more technique than "give it five ugga duggas and it'll never move." Not saying that's what you did, but still, re-check :)

When I put my plug in, I did this. Torque screwdrivers are $30 on Amazon (hint: look for the ones that are used for firearms)

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#165

Post by bdcravens »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #121
albrewer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't own or didn't use a torque wrench to tighten the connections and this was awhile ago, I would go and re-torque them. Properly connecting these types of connections requires more technique than "give it five ugga duggas and it'll never move." Not saying that's what you did, but still, re-check :)

How many electricians do you see using a torque wrench?

It's code to do so as of NEC 2017.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#166

Post by toast0 »

yellowapple wrote: post #119
aynyc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it would destroy poor-middle class home owners and renters. This year, it's electrical, next year is gas line, the year after is sewer, soon enough, poor-middle class won't be able to afford any homes and rents will go up. This is particular true in larger cities.

Defer code compliance to time of sale/purchase. Basically: if you want to sell it as a house, it has to be up to code, but until then, go hog-wild. Seems like that would solve the issue - and in practice I'm pretty sure that's already the case.

That's fine where the benefits of code compliance outweigh the costs of compliance.

But old homes are expensive to rewire. And often, the safety benefits are very small. Current code requires a lot more outlets than older code, in part because many people overuse extension cords and tiny/cheap power taps when there aren't sufficient outlets, which is a safety issue, but is it worth spending thousands of dollars to pull new wire through existing walls, and then repairing the walls afterwards?

Some issues, are worth retrofitting for, and hopefully a pre-sales inspection by the buyer or insurance inspection will catch those. It would be reasonable to have a transfer inspection for those too.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#167

Post by rlpb »

natch wrote: post #12

Profanity alert. Don’t read this if you are sensitive. You. Do. Fucking. Not. Need. An EV charger, to charge your EV. A 110 or 220 outlet with a cord and an adapter will work just fine. Apologies for the US centric terminology but I expect the situation is roughly the same (though numbers vary) elsewhere. We did TWO Teslas in an apartment for two years sharing (alternating cars) a single plug of a single 110 outlet.…

We bought a second hand EV with ~60 miles range, and a standard 240V (UK) outlet wasn't enough for us. We got a charger installed. It turned out that around city the range was fine, but if we wanted to do [multiple] outings in a day, we couldn't. Getting a 7kW charger made all the difference, because it can recharge the car in a couple of hours in the middle of the day.

So my caveat to your claim would be: only if your EV itself has enough range, which means you're limited to newer EVs, rather than buying older ones on the second hand market that were manufactured with less range (and by now probably only have ~80% of their original, lesser range, remaining).

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#168

Post by amluto »

dpifke wrote: post #114
amluto wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding a second grounding rod anywhere else would violate code in most states and potentially create a grounding loop and fire hazard. Can you cite the relevant portion of the code? Or, for that matter, can you explain why exactly a ground loop is a fire hazard? If this was a hazard, then buildings would burn down when a grounded metallic conduit was buried underground (perfectly legal and very common, although dub…

Multiple grounding rods (electrodes) are permitted by § 250.52, but they have to be bonded together and kept away from other (non-bonded) grounding systems: Electrode Spacing. Where more than one of the electrodes of the type specified in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) are used, each electrode of one grounding system (including that used for strike termination devices) shall not be less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other elec…

That section AIUI is about “grounding electrodes” that are intended for use as part of the required main ground. NEC 250.54 says you may install an auxiliary grounding electrode if you are so inclined without following all those rules. Other sections of the NEC explicitly allow burying things like rigid metallic conduit underground, which is a lot like a grounding rod attached to a branch circuit or feeder.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#169

Post by mindslight »

bdcravens wrote: post #162
breput wrote: post #9

The electrical code has evolved not only to enrich electricians, but also to provide a safer environment for the occupants of the buildings. So noting/complaining about having to upgrade an 82 year old rental duplex to modern standards because of electric car charging is a little disingenuous. That wiring is already past the end of life and ought to be updated for the safety of the occupants. But I wouldn't be surpri…

Note that states can always override NEC requirements. For example, Texas overrode the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers. (Learned this when wiring my garage with a 30A plug for my EV)

> the 2020 NEC requirement that 240 outlets in the garage must have GFCI breakers

I haven't been keeping up on all the new NEC requirements for shoving xxCI's in various places, but I can see no rationale for this one. There is no such thing as 240 volts to ground in a home - it's all 120V (that's RMS, it's 170V peak), with a "240" outlet being both line phases (say +120 and -120 at a given point in time, giving a differential of 240).

Touching a residential "240 volt" line for a dryer or stove will give you the same exact shock as touching a common 120 volt line. The risk of 240 volt circuits is that they are generally of higher ampacity, and will thus have a much higher arc current. A GFCI does absolutely nothing to mitigate this!

Honestly they would have been better mandating the garage 120v receptacles be GFCI even though they're above grade, because people tend to do things like plug extension cords into them for use outside. 240 volt receptacles generally have a dedicated purpose, like a car charger.

Re: I tried to add EV chargers to my rental property

#170

Post by [deleted] »

amluto wrote: post #168
dpifke wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple grounding rods (electrodes) are permitted by § 250.52, but they have to be bonded together and kept away from other (non-bonded) grounding systems: Electrode Spacing. Where more than one of the electrodes of the type specified in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(7) are used, each electrode of one grounding system (including that used for strike termination devices) shall not be less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other elec…

That section AIUI is about “grounding electrodes” that are intended for use as part of the required main ground. NEC 250.54 says you may install an auxiliary grounding electrode if you are so inclined without following all those rules. Other sections of the NEC explicitly allow burying things like rigid metallic conduit underground, which is a lot like a grounding rod attached to a branch circuit or feeder.

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