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Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

awealthofcommonsense.com

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Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#161
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does mention it. "If you don’t have a dime to your name you should take the guaranteed million dollars all day, every day. But what if you have some money? What if you’re already a millionaire? At that level of wealth taking the 50/50 shot at $50 million might be far more tempting."

"You should only gamble with money you don't need." Which most people already know.

No, not even then. You shouldn't play games other people arrange in any way, except ie educationally, or for the pleasure of winning and nothing else. Not with money.

Prizes for challenges, maybe. Chess tournaments with a buy-in, that I respect because no luck involved, meaning no tipping the scales no cheating.

So the problem in gambling is when you just lost a big bet of money you didn't need and the only way to recover is putting up a tiny bit of money you do need. By nature gambling--and by the way it's sold--is designed to fuck with that fine line.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#162
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A useful formula is the Kelly Criterion [0]. I'm abusing the logic and probably going to apply this wrong, but... I think this counts as a 24:1 bet (we notionally have $1 million, we can gamble to get another $24). The Kelly bet is 0.5 - 0.5/24 ~= 0.5. So we would want to put about half our wealth into this gamble and that implies it starts becoming attractive around the time we have $2 million to invest. Up till the…

This is an interesting way of looking at it that I hadn't thought of--turning the Kelly criterion around to ask "what would my bankroll have to be to make this bet worth it" rather than "what size bet should I make given the bankroll I have." It's worth noting that it can often make sense to be more conservative than the Kelly criterion would suggest, depending on your risk tolerance. So I would consider your calcula…

That feels about right. Depends on age, future earning potential, objectives, circumstances, etc. But it seems like somewhere in the $3-5 million net worth range is where most people would seriously start considering rolling the dice but you could probably imagine it as low as $2m if someone were confident that $1m today wouldn't really be life-changing.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#163

Given my current financial situation, 1 million would let me retire immediately. What I see when I look at those buttons are: 100% chance of being able to retire early vs 50% chance of being able to retire early.

Unless you're expecting to less than maybe 10 years to live, I wonder how anyone can assume $1 million would be enough to retire, given the uncertainty about the rate of inflation in the next few years.

I already have 1.5 and own my home.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a key observation in more practical concerns like retirement planning. Often, maximizing expected value isn't actually what you want. For somebody with a comfortable retirement portfolio you care a lot more about not running out of money than ending up with a huge amount when you die. So you'll choose strategies that might have worse expected values but limit the frequency of worst case scenarios.

Isn’t it expected utility that matters, not expected value? From that standpoint taking $1 million guaranteed is rational unless you already have high net worth.

That's an additional concern, but even if you have a flat "utility" scale you can use for comparisons, _expected_ value still isn't necessarily the thing you want to optimize.

Maximizing the min/max outcomes are common alternative preferences. Like, suppose I have a 1% chance of being tortured for a year and a 99% chance at being the next God-Emporer. I can't actually average those futures; I'll be in one or the other, and I might want to have a 0% chance of torture or if the odds are flipped maybe I'm okay with being tortured for the tiny chance at being God-Emporer.

Such preferences are hard to cover under the umbrella of maximizing expected utility because it introduces (neg)infinite utility to certain outcomes. Instead recognizing that you might be optimizing something else is a cleaner way to handle the problem.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#165
post #130
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I get it, but I'm not so sure I'm convinced. Those examples, however, don't resonate with me (don't have a car, nor a license to drive one; nor I own a house; I've been inside an airplane only once). However, I believe I've done similar things with used electronics. I tend to favor buying a really cheap used ones for [sometimes] 1/5 of the price instead of a new one. It could break or be of low quality, but c…

>In many situations, I can pay extra for an extra year or two of 'guarantee' (not sure if the right term is 'guarantee' or 'insurance'). However, very often, the first 6 months or 1 year of guarantee is given and has its cost embedded in the price of the product. T Extended warranty which is basically insurance. Leaving aside the fact that some credit cards provide it for you anyway and things like that. Yes, for mos…

One of the thing that isn't obvious to me that seems to be for many people is the decision to maximize expected value instead of best worst case scenario. In this situation, given how exceptional the 100%1M vs. 50%50M situation is and how the 1M will definitely kill your financial problems, it really does seem like you'd like to pick the strategy that maximizes your worst case scenario (if choice=red, worst-case=1M; if choice=green, worst-case=0). I understand the reasoning behind expected values, I guess, it's just that it's not clear to me it is of any use here.

To me, the choice looks like "solve your financial issues with the red button; 100% chance" vs. "solve your financial issues and get extra money you won't really need, but with 50% chance through the green button".

I'd have a hard time choosing the green button.

It's curious because I'm a mathematician. I feel like I should know this better, but I've never really studied probability, much less statistics or economics.

(edit)

Another issue is what would it mean, in practice, that "50%" statement? I guess it means that if you'd play the game long enough, 50M would come out roughly half the times (by counting). This could mean a system in which the first 10 always fails, the second 10 always succeed, and the ones after that have their results based on a fair dice (1,2,3->50M; 4,5,6->0). This would certainly fit the frequency "definition". In practice, these probabilities don't mean a clean neat thing very often. Another issue is that the definition of that 50% means if you played that game long enough, you'd observe the half-half split, but you'll play it only once. Again, there is a statement about a limit (a statement about a_n, for n large), but you're only looking at a_1 (it often seems to me that people believe that information about EV transfers to information about a_1 -- it really does not). Even though I can mostly think of artificial examples (stuff like the one above), I'm not sure it'd be clear [in an actual situation] what is the meaning of that '50%'.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#166
post #165
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In many situations, I can pay extra for an extra year or two of 'guarantee' (not sure if the right term is 'guarantee' or 'insurance'). However, very often, the first 6 months or 1 year of guarantee is given and has its cost embedded in the price of the product. T Extended warranty which is basically insurance. Leaving aside the fact that some credit cards provide it for you anyway and things like that. Yes, for mos…

One of the thing that isn't obvious to me that seems to be for many people is the decision to maximize expected value instead of best worst case scenario. In this situation, given how exceptional the 100%1M vs. 50%50M situation is and how the 1M will definitely kill your financial problems, it really does seem like you'd like to pick the strategy that maximizes your worst case scenario (if choice=red, worst-case=1M;…

If the $1m "solves your financial problems" or is otherwise life-changing, you should almost certainly take the sure thing. As other discussions suggest, once you get into maybe the $3m-$5m net worth range, you presumably already don't have financial problems and another $1m is nice but not really transformative whereas $50m would be even though not a sure thing.

Even for a one time event, at some point it makes more sense to place the bet depending on a number of factors.

If it's hard to conceive of in this scenario, pick numbers about which it's easier to have intuition. What if you could take $10 for certain vs. a 50% chance of getting $500? Or pick some other values with the same ratio. 50% in this case just means a coin flip. You're right that no one gets the expected value. They get zero or they get $50m. But that may be a good bet depending on circumstances.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because each event is independent.

But the point is, that we can collect data, based on the information that we observed. The fact that we observed this data, means that this would effect our estimation of the situation.

Only if you have reason to believe that the events are not independent. And anyway the way the original scenario is phrased suggests that it is a one off.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#168

Expected value doesn't mean jack shit if the game can only be played once. > Expected value (also known as EV, expectation, average, or mean value) is a long-run average value of random variables. If you can only press a button once - you should take the guaranteed money in almost all circumstances (assuming you have finances that look like most Americans - if you're already a millionaire... do what you want, this ga…

The most profound comment was not in this HN thread, nor by a user in the Twitter thread: the most profound comment was the one quoted in the article itself, by Bernoulli!:

> Bernoulli once wrote, “The utility [of probabilistic decisions] is dependent on the particular circumstances of the person making the estimate. There is no reason to assume that the risks anticipated by each [individual] must be deemed equal in value.”

Risk over non-fungibles (body parts, sentimentally valued heirloom pieces, ...) are obviously subjectively valued. But even for platonic (ideal) fungibles like fiat money the risks depend on the person because modeling reality as if everyone is treated equal in commerce or has equal access to and treatment in the courts etc. is a very strong assumption to make.

Let us first assume contracts are never reneged etc, and let us thus first assume agreements are rigorously respected.

Let us further assume the subject has the usual goal of maximizing its capital, here denoted in dollars.

Since currencies are a social construct and only hold value in the context of a society, we assume the subject is in prolonged contact with a society that values this currency. (If not the subject doesn't care which answer to give.)

Contrary to all the comments here in HN (nonlinear utility etc.), if the goal of the subject is to maximize capital, then the correct answer (assuming absence of things like conscientious objection) is unconditionally the green button with the highest Expectation Value, non-linear utility functions, or one-time-ness of the offer, or subject poverty be damned!

To understand why: even if the offer is one-time, and even if the subject can not afford the regret of missing out, the subject is still in contact with society. This society has companies regularly dealing with large sums, and optimizing expectation value.

THE SUBJECT CAN SIMPLY GO TO A BANK AND TRADE THE HIGH ROI FOR STABILITY WITH THE BANK:

For example the subject and bank can agree to the following:

* Bank pays subject $20 million

* subject presses green button

* If subject receives $50 million, it forwards this to the bank, otherwise nothing

In this scenario the subject wins $20 million unconditionally, and the bank spent $20 M with an expected return of $25 M, so the bank sees an expected ROI of a handsome +25%.

The real catch is not personal utility function, one-time-ness, etc ... but reliability of contracts and trustworthiness of the system enforcing them, which one can read between the lines of Bernoulli's comments.

All the comments and observations about how poor people "should" take the certainty with the lower amount is just echoing the indoctrinated "learn and embrace your lowly position in society" wheither thats low in rewards, or low in reliability of fair enforcement of the law.

I find it hard to read intellectually capable people concoct artificial examples to make people distrust mathematical rigor when it can be entirely relied upon. The real element of unreliability is in the systems under which we are subjugated.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#169
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rory Sutherland (behavioural science chap) made a similar point on travel. He says that when he must get to the airport on time, he takes the back roads that get him there in a guaranteed 30 minutes rather than take the freeway that will take 15 minutes 95% of the time but could be heavily congested (and inescapable) otherwise. Sometimes urgency and efficiency are at odds!

But we live in a world of real time traffic reports and satnav, so ...just do what's best ok the day

I remember looking at real-time traffic reports, but they were not future time, which is what I needed. I had an appointment to make but 500 feet in front of me...horrible crash. No way out. Stuck for 45 minutes. Had I had future time instead of real-time, that would be the best solution.

Had I taken the back roads, if there was an accident, there would be tons of options to get to where I needed to go.

If you need to be somewhere at a certain time, do the tried and true 100% guaranteed way.

It's how it is.

So there's that.

Re: Why people make dumb financial decisions on purpose

#170

Expected value doesn't mean jack shit if the game can only be played once. > Expected value (also known as EV, expectation, average, or mean value) is a long-run average value of random variables. If you can only press a button once - you should take the guaranteed money in almost all circumstances (assuming you have finances that look like most Americans - if you're already a millionaire... do what you want, this ga…

EV is such a nonsense measure anyway once you step outside the realm of pure theory. For example, the EV in this example (50% chance of $50m, or $0) is $25m. The EV of a 2.5% chance of $1 billion is also $25m, but your probability of getting nothing is 20 times higher. Is it more rational to choose this over the certainty of $1m? I don't think so. Is it rational to chose a 0.0025% chance of $1 trillion over $1m? At t…

That just does to show that expected value is not the rational metric, but expected utility is.
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