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It wasn't for nothing

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Re: It wasn't for nothing

#161

Post by rekado »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #155
rekado wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

re "guilting": Even hard-core free software folks will not see the use of proprietary software as a moral failing, but rather as an injustice. Nobody should be shamed for using proprietary software. (I consider it morally wrong to write proprietary software, though.) Even people like RMS have stated as much in the past. Ignore those who turn this free software stuff into some weird quest for moral purity. Nobody care…

> Nobody should be shamed for using proprietary software. (I consider it morally wrong to write proprietary software, though.) So you consider my day job morally wrong, but I shouldn't be shamed for that. Got it. When I mentioned that I needed some proprietary bits to get my printer working, it was suggested I buy a different printer. Can you perhaps see how that could be interpreted to be shameful? > On machines tha…

> So you consider my day job morally wrong, but I shouldn't be shamed for that.

Yes, I do consider it morally wrong. So what? I'm aware that most humans are not free agents and are coerced into harmful or destructive behaviors because of economic pressures. We obviously don't agree on our premises. I don't think agreement is required, so what does it matter?

> relevant documentation

See the chapter on Channels in the Guix manual. It tells you how to enable third-party channels. Once that's done packages and services provided by those channels are indistinguishable from those provided with the official Guix channels, and you can use them wherever you would use packages and services provided by the Guix project.

If you want to replace packages used deep down in the package graph (e.g. glibc or something like that), see Package Transformations in the Guix manual. You can rewrite dependencies and drop in your own custom packages, no matter how deep into the guts of the graph you want to reach.

Re: It wasn't for nothing

#162

Post by rekado »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #154
rekado wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"enforce beliefs"? No. Proprietary software simply isn't part of the project and discussing stuff that are besides the project goals on project channels is not welcome. You don't have to belief anything to use Guix or participate in the community. It's an odd sense of entitlement to demand that others accept, accommodate, and welcome your ideology in dealings with you. I also find it strange that you ascribe "this is…

> Proprietary software simply isn't part of the project and discussing stuff that are besides the project goals on project channels is not welcome. Yes, and I believe that this attitude harms community building, education and adoption efforts. You specifically use the words "not welcome". Other, more welcoming projects typically don't use such language outside of a Code of Conduct policy document. I'm pointing out th…

I don't think we're coming to an understanding.

You're (inadvertently?) twisting the phrase "not welcome", which I apply to behavior, to make it apply to people. If we can't agree on how to apply words we cannot use them to approach understanding.

Re: It wasn't for nothing

#163

Post by rekado »

bhelkey wrote: post #146

Very off topic but I am curious about Guix: > It's reassuring to know that all packages are bootstrapped and not just some random binary blobs. Surely there must be some binary blobs, no?

There are some binary blobs, yes. Some stem from the early days.

Before Mes and the reduced binary seed (see the Guix manual for details) we used to have a selected set of bootstrap binaries (e.g. statically linked bash, tar, gzip, a big fat gcc, etc). With Mes the bootstrap seed is merely a couple of bytes that can feasibly be audited. Reproducible builds make it possible to audit the results of this early bootstrap.

Some binary blobs remain: for example, there's a blob for an arbitrary version of the Glasgow Haskell Compiler, because our collective attempts to bootstrap it from source have failed. (I have previously published some of my experiences in attempting to find a bootstrap path.)

Another blob is a bootstrap binary for the Pascal compiler; there's another one for one of the Scheme implementations, I think.

But for new packages we generally won't accept pre-built binaries. Our Java packages, for example, are completely built from source. Back then I worked on the Java bootstrap from source; we're building the first Java compiler and the first Java libraries from C (jikes + GNU classpath) and work our way up to the latest OpenJDK. Java libraries are also built completely from source --- we won't accept pre-built Jars (unlike Nix). This is probably the primary reason why Guix has fewer Java packages than Nix.

The Rust bootstrap (on x86_64) is also done from C.

Re: It wasn't for nothing

#164

Post by 3836293648 »

sierkov wrote: post #72
3836293648 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're just turning to flatpak, why are you even using guix in the first place?

Flatpak is not an OS. Weird question.

If you've turned to a system based on everything being perfectly declarative and reproducible, why would you then add an imperative autoupdating system on top of that? Of course you can, but if you're fine with that kind of system, why would you have turned to guix in the first place? It's not like it's just the popular default and you want to do something else on top, it's a super niche thing based specifically around this and you're breaking the core philosophy

Re: It wasn't for nothing

#165

Post by Shocka1 »

Feels good seeing so many people feel the same way. I've been working on an algorithmic trading project for a few years now and at times there have been speedbumps where I ask myself what I'm doing when I could be getting a lot more sleep or doing other hobbies like fishing, golfing, riding MTB, etc...

I would add that little wins here and there are extremely motivating to keep pushing. For example, I recently started digging back into trigonometry after many years of being away. It's been extremely satisfying re-learning basic trig functions for an actual purpose, rather than simply solving a math problem.

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