Live data from Hacker News

Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

arstechnica.com

161–170 of 585 posts

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#161
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because waiving due diligence does not mean the seller is immune to claims if they knowingly provided false data.

That will be almost impossible to prove. Especially as he provided an all-cash, take-it-or-leave-it offer based on publicly available financial data. He has access to lawyers and financial advisors to warn him against potential misstatemrnts on Twitter's part. If they signed off on it, he has no case. If they warned him against it, and he went ahead anyway, he also has no case. The judge will rightfully wonder how th…

What happens in cases like this is that Musk will request the court for discovery of internal Twitter documents/emails/reports/etc to backup his claim that Twitter was aware that more bots existed in their BAU number than they reported.

Twitter will object, but ultimately some degree of discovery will be allowed (with a more narrow scope), but it will pressure Twitter to settle for a lower purchase price because god only knows what kinds of incriminating shit lawyers will find in employee emails. Internal emails is always a big big random variable which can then spawn all sorts of unrelated lawsuits from discrimination, to regulatory fines, to executives' private life drama, etc...

Even if Twitter is innocent - it is very easy for lawyers to intentionally misconstrue a vague email or threaten so with things found in discovery.

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#162
Urgh, Botometer. I guessed it would be that as soon as I saw the headline.

I used to work on fighting bots. Botometer has a long and storied history of making totally false claims about Twitter accounts. In the past it identified something like 50% of US Congress as bots. It has unfortunate credibility because it's a machine learning model produced by academic "research", but no credibility is deserved. The academics who created it are, in my view, guilty of gross intellectual misconduct.

Botometer has had an absurdly high FP rate for years and Twitter are right to call Musk out for using it, though presumably Musk was just as conned as everyone else who has used this tool. Really the Botometer papers should all be retracted, as should any papers that relied on it, and then the researchers who created it should be fired. Unfortunately this would require retracting huge chunks of academic social bot research - Botometer is just that prevalent.

A thorough debunking of the model can be found here by Gallwitz and Kreil:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.11474.pdf

"In this paper, we point out a fundamental theoretical flaw in the widely-used study design for estimating the prevalence of social bots. Furthermore, we empirically investigate the validity of peer-reviewed Botometer-based studies by closely and systematically inspecting hundreds of accounts that had been counted as social bots. We were unable to find a single social bot. Instead, we found mostly accounts undoubtedly operated by human users, the vast majority of them using Twitter in an inconspicuous and unremarkable fashion without the slightest traces of automation. We conclude that studies claiming to investigate the prevalence, properties, or influence of social bots based on Botometer have, in reality, just investigated false positives and artifacts of this approach."

It took them years to get this paper published, and when they first announced their work the Botometer guys simply called them "academic trolls" and ignored the problems they reported (except for hard-coding their examples to be correct!).

If a full paper is too much, I've written a couple of essays about the problems of social bot research. This one summarizes an earlier/longer version of the GK paper above:

https://blog.plan99.net/fake-science-part-ii-bots-that-are-n...

and that earlier paper cites another essay I wrote back in 2017 about a non-Botometer based Twitter bot paper:

https://blog.plan99.net/did-russian-bots-impact-brexit-ad66f...

Given these issues it's not hugely surprising that Musk believes incorrect things about Twitter bots. The field of Twitter bot research is massive with over 10,000 papers. The original Botometer paper has been cited over 800 times. He is far from alone - many politicians and journalists have all fallen for these claims too. Twitter should probably have pushed back far more strongly, far earlier, but the general convention of never criticizing academics regardless of how dishonest they become defanged them and they never went further than a rather mildly worded blog post. Now the chickens have come home to roost. Misinformation spread by "misinformation researchers" is creating real world legal consequences.

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#163
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen no credible evidence that Twitter is wrong about their numbers. Nor do I even see any possible way an outsider could figure that number out.

Have you seen credible evidence that they are right about their numbers? Without Twitter providing more context and showing their work, the number can't be trusted, thus it isn't credible. If you claim you have such a low number of bots (5%), you better prove it, otherwise I'll assume the worst and go with 20%. Anyone that goes on Twitter knows it's above 5%. All 3rd party estimations are well above 5%. Prove it Twit…

> If you claim you have such a low number of bots (5%)

Twitter has never made any such claim. It's incredible how hard it is for some people to actually read the extremely explicit process they lay out in their SEC filing.

Twitter has users. A subset of those users are "monetizable daily active users" - that is, users who log in to Twitter from platforms which are capable of showing them ads, or otherwise making money. A subset of users who would normally be counted as mDAUs may be discovered today to be spam bots, may be suspended for other reasons, or may otherwise turn out not to be monetizable - so they are excluded from future mDAUs. A subet of those users have been counted as mDAUs in the past: this is the subset that is estimated to be 5%.

There are plenty of bots on Twitter that are not mDAUs. Some are actually fully legitimate, like the earthquake or weather reporting bots: they are valid Twitter accounts who are bots and who are not counted as mDAUs.

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree there won't be any meet in the middle. Neither Musk nor Twitter want Musk to own Twitter now though. What's happening today is negotiating the break up fee which starts at the difference between current market cap and 54B (~22B today). The accelerated trial date put Musk on notice. The SEC may not take enforcing the rules seriously, but Delaware has made it their business to enforce the rules that make it att…

Why settle for only $10B? Musk's shenanigans have resulted in significant long-term damage to Twitter in the form uncertainty and distracting Twitter from focusing on operating and growing the business (because they've changed internal policies / direction, and shared a lot of information with Musk, as per the acquisition agreement). It's only fair for mullosk to be on the hook for the full purchase or at the very le…

$10b cash will go a long way to remedying that damage. They might even not ban Musk's account as a show of goodwill. Let him continue to bloviate impotently about the evils of censorious social media.

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#165
post #140
post #105

Imagine this whole ordeal playing out on a house that was not listed for sale. The buyer starts harassing the homeowner to sell to them, they say no, so he buys up the mortgage lender and tries to force a sale. His antics are hurting the home's value so you relent to selling and give him an as-is sale contract, which he signs and gives you 24 hrs to respond or he will try to force a sale. All the while, this is of co…

[flagged]

What are your thoughts on TruthSocial, which is also "a company of bullies, with how they ban people from their service that down't conform"?

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#166
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>They repeatedly demonstrate that they are a company of bullies, with how they ban people from their service that don't conform to the left orthodoxy. So the manner in which they conduct their private business, which is well within the rule of law, makes them ineligible for protection from those violating securities and contract law?

> makes them ineligible for protection from those violating securities and contract law

GP said he doesn't feel sorry for them. He said nothing about legal protections being inapplicable to Twitter. You just brazenly made this up out of whole cloth.

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#167
post #140
post #105

Imagine this whole ordeal playing out on a house that was not listed for sale. The buyer starts harassing the homeowner to sell to them, they say no, so he buys up the mortgage lender and tries to force a sale. His antics are hurting the home's value so you relent to selling and give him an as-is sale contract, which he signs and gives you 24 hrs to respond or he will try to force a sale. All the while, this is of co…

[flagged]

The fact you think that Twitter supports "left orthodoxy" just means the conservatives have successfully moved the goalposts to make you believe they're the real victims.

Twitter is full of very prominent hard-right voices. Douglas Murray! Charles Murray! Tucker Carlson! Dave Rubin! Ben Shapiro! Edit: Bannon! Paul Joseph Watson! Jack Posobiec!

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#168

Twitter makes what seems like a good "gotcha" point here, but knowing a little bit about how social media bots work, I'd like to try and give my 2 cents about why Musk's profile is probably not a great one for this type of analysis. 1) Many people who create a brand new Twitter account just end up following a few celebrities and then either not tweeting much or forgetting about the account after a short time after de…

All good points, and all proving that the methods used by Musk are unreliable for saying who is or isn't a bot - thus proving Twitter's point.

Re: Twitter says Musk’s spam analysis used tool that called his own account a bot

#170
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who could possibly be on the side of the buyer? Except you can just buy up supporters by gaslighting huge masses of people on Twitter. The house in question. Its so ridiculous. Musk's popularity is largely *BECAUSE* of his Twitter antics. So this "buyer" is basically someone who has come to house-parties / benefited from the house in question for the last decade. And the people arguing against the (current owners)…

If his popularity is due to what he posts on twitter it would appear that a large proportion of the human race are deranged morons.

Yes
Post reply on HN