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Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

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Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#161
Yes this is true and unfortunate but what is the relevant advice for hiring managers here? Ignore resumes altogether?

I worked at a FAANG company for a long time and now work at a startup. In general I have no desire to replicate their hiring but I would still consider the FAANG engineer resume line as a very strong positive signal.

I’m not trying to be elitist. I know that the best engineers I’ve ever met would not be recognizable by a simple resume screen. But even at a startup we get hundreds of resumes per open position, we do need some filtering criteria.

In general every HN discussion around hiring seems to go in the same circle. Absolutely nobody is happy with the status quo but also nobody has a working solution they can share that’s not riddled with personal biases.

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#162
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the "state degree" vs. "Ivy League degree" thing that common in US society? I ask because I've just joined an American company, and a person mentioned that they'd been hired and given a chance to excel "despite only having a state degree, much to my Mom's disgust", which surprised me. In my country, there's not much difference between the respective universities in terms of 'prestige'.

I mean, maybe somewhere? I’ve interacted with precisely one Harvard graduate and he was the brother in law of my CEO boss who had gone to a state school. Even the best “Ivy League Feeder” private school in my city of 2 million has maybe 2 students a year go to an Ivy League. A guy I went to school with got a 1600 on his SAT (max score nationwide college entrance test) and wasn’t accepted to Harvard in 2004. My wife g…

Cheers, it's not something I'd ever encountered, and the other Americans in the call seemed to know what it meant.

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#163
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "even Masters program into science"?

A Master’s degree in CS, like a bootcamp, is a negative signal about an applicant.

Are you speculating that orzig meant to say "a Master's degree in CS" instead of "even Masters program into science"? Are they somebody you know personally?

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Master’s degree in CS, like a bootcamp, is a negative signal about an applicant.

Why? I did an engineering undergrad and MSCS part time so I could take some fun classes I wished to take in undergrad. What’s the negative signal in general?

Just speculating, but maybe people interpret "Master's degree in CS" as "dropped out of a Ph.D. program because it was too hard"?

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#165
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people really do have to pivot up through some more average jobs first before landing the Big Tech jobs with huge paychecks. But the assertion here is that too many “pivoting up” jobs are a negative indicator. (An “upper class” programmer wouldn’t spend time in the “lower” classes.) Not saying I agree or disagree with this, but the existence of a class system in tech jobs is the OP’s central point. Edit: The O…

"Wrong kind of experience is worse than no experience" is an interesting concept. It implies that the people thinking like this think that people aren't mutable. With no experience, you're a tabula rasa, but once you've been carved, that's it, fixed in stone. Which may be true for some people, but I'm fairly certain that humans are known for their adaptability, their willingness to learn. At least that's why they get…

Real life is not D&D.

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colleges are less impactful for trendy tech companies than they are for finance or whatever. I went to a no-name state school and could get into these things. If you really did an internship programming at Walgreens, it's easy enough to omit it from your resume.

Is the "state degree" vs. "Ivy League degree" thing that common in US society? I ask because I've just joined an American company, and a person mentioned that they'd been hired and given a chance to excel "despite only having a state degree, much to my Mom's disgust", which surprised me. In my country, there's not much difference between the respective universities in terms of 'prestige'.

> Is the "state degree" vs. "Ivy League degree" thing that common in US society?

In certain circles, yes.

Usually these circles have many people who have gone to Ivy League schools — lawyers, financiers, and consultants are professional communities in which a sub-group of these folks can commonly be found (esp. in the Northeast Corridor).

Note that some of the perceived discrepancy is misplaced. Most/all top students at pretty much any flagship state school would fit in quite naturally at Ivy League schools (probably top half at least, tbh). They probably just didn’t want to go to an Ivy or didn’t want to jump through the right hoops to get into one. Most people either find themselves accidentally doing things that Ivies like (winning something or doing something of note at a regional, national, or international level), or they make a concerted effort to do so.

If anyone has been in that system and taken a look around, it’s not hard to see the patterns that are needed to drastically increase the likelihood of getting admitted. Great grades and high SATs alone just doesn’t cut it.

The doors that elite schools (esp. the top ivies and Stanford) open to its members is impressive, imho. Is this fair? No. Is it the present reality. Yes. I expect it will remain this way for decades to come.

In terms of prestige, I will add that there are quite a lot of Ivy League students/grads who don’t come across as being very smart (they are smart enough, but definitely won’t blow you away or win any awards for intellect), but their “prestige” probably comes from something else (sports is very, very common, and demonstrated strong leadership is a huge winner).

As a side note, I will add that the American system is the opposite of Japan, Korea, and China, where the most prestigious universities are all national public universities.

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#168
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Master’s degree in CS, like a bootcamp, is a negative signal about an applicant.

Are you speculating that orzig meant to say "a Master's degree in CS" instead of "even Masters program into science"? Are they somebody you know personally?

> In my experience, an MS degree has been one of the strongest indicators of poor technical interview performance.

> Whereas MS degrees used to be a means for departments to begin vetting future PhD students, I believe that the purpose has, in some ways, shifted to be a cash cow for the university in question.

> Part of the problem is that CS fundamentals instruction tends to happen in undergrad computer science courses.

> One tempting option is to try to get an MS from a top computer science school to legitimize yourself on paper. If you actually are passionate about programming, I would urge you not to do that

https://blog.alinelerner.com/how-different-is-a-b-s-in-compu...

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#169
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I did an engineering undergrad and MSCS part time so I could take some fun classes I wished to take in undergrad. What’s the negative signal in general?

Just speculating, but maybe people interpret "Master's degree in CS" as "dropped out of a Ph.D. program because it was too hard"?

The enormous majority of Master’s degrees awarded in most fields are for taught Master’s that bear far more resemblance to undergraduate study than Ph.D. preparation. Unless you know someone has a degree that is only possible to get if you were admitted to a Ph.D. programme the assumption should be that it’s a cat cow. There are exceptions, like GA Tech’s OMSCS, but unless you have excellent reason to believe otherwise an MA or MS can be assumed to be a university’s cash grab.

Re: Having no experience can be better than having the wrong experience

#170

An anchoring effect is at play. Professionals, and people more in general, are defined by what they have done so far, especially after becoming full-fledged adults. The best predictor of tomorrow, on average, is today. Working from the bottom up sounds good on paper, and in theory it makes sense, because it is an archetype: the struggle, working your way up and then reaping what you have sown. But that is not how we…

> The best predictor of tomorrow, on average, is today

Is it? Or do we make it that way.

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