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Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#161

Post by danaris »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #61
Retric wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competition limits how much they could raise prices, automation and efficiency increases are needed to compete.

Who is more efficient than Amazon/Walmart/Target/Home Depot/Staples/Costco/etc? They set the bottom price, and if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins, then their costs increases will have to end up in either prices increases or them no longer selling the product. The funny thing is that it is Amazon coming along and greatly increasing demand for labor (in conjunction with reduced supply of that type of labor) that…

> if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins

They're not (depending on the product).

My wife used to work in Halloween costume design for a wholesaler (and some of her costumes did end up in Target and Walmart, which was cool to see), and the retailers' margins on those were at least 50%.

As I said, the margin does depend heavily on the product, but do not assume that across-the-board average margins are anywhere near that razor-thin.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#162

Post by abirch »

photochemsyn wrote: post #70
jaclaz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be wrong, but besides and before the wage increases, it seems to me like the priority would be for decent working conditions, if what is published from time to time on media is actually true, the biggest issues are about lack of (normal, decent) pauses or rest periods, continuous summoning for increases in productivity, total control on the workers, etc.

All that becomes a lot more tolerable if you're getting double your previous pay.

The pay is why the employees don't quit en mass.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#164

Post by zeroonetwothree »

willyt wrote: post #28
oldjavacoder wrote: post #20

Quoted post unavailable.

A union is just a way to make a multilateral contract negotiation between one huge party and hundreds of thousands of very small parties into a bi-lateral contract negotiation between two equals, it’s a completely rational negotiating tactic in a pure capitalist system and it can only be prevented by restricting basic human rights to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of contract and the right to live wi…

I agree completely as long as we also don’t start using state police power to enforce closed shops.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#165

Post by francoisdevlin »

mswift42 wrote: post #120
GuB-42 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that means less for the executives and shareholders. They may have to sell some of their properties, oh dear. Is it what usually happens when workers unionize? It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well.

> It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well. Can you substantiate this claim? With the vast majority of goods the price is set by the market, i.e. higher wages would indeed result in a smaller profit margin and not in a higher price.

Anecdote not data

Some of the grocery shops near me are known union shops. The prices are in fact higher than the non union shops.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#166

Post by lotsofpulp »

Spooky23 wrote: post #128
lotsofpulp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that means less for the executives and shareholders. They may have to sell some of their properties, oh dear. Based on retail business profit margins, it would mean higher prices for customers. Not that that is a bad thing, less consumption would be great.

In the Metro NY and upstate regions, there is a supermarket chain called Shoprite that is unionized. Where I live, none of the other chains are union shops. The only visible difference as a consumer is there are less (or no) automated checkout lanes. Prices are no different than anywhere else.

In my experience, Aldi/Walmart/Lidl/Costco prices are much lower than Shop Rite. Also, Shop Rites are sort of like franchises, different ones have different owners and management.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#167

Post by lotsofpulp »

danaris wrote: post #161
lotsofpulp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is more efficient than Amazon/Walmart/Target/Home Depot/Staples/Costco/etc? They set the bottom price, and if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins, then their costs increases will have to end up in either prices increases or them no longer selling the product. The funny thing is that it is Amazon coming along and greatly increasing demand for labor (in conjunction with reduced supply of that type of labor) that…

> if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins They're not (depending on the product). My wife used to work in Halloween costume design for a wholesaler (and some of her costumes did end up in Target and Walmart, which was cool to see), and the retailers' margins on those were at least 50%. As I said, the margin does depend heavily on the product, but do not assume that across-the-board average margins are anywhere near…

That is irrelevant because the entire organization’s profit margins are where increased wages would come from.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#168

Post by danaris »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #167
danaris wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they are earning 2%-4% profit margins They're not (depending on the product). My wife used to work in Halloween costume design for a wholesaler (and some of her costumes did end up in Target and Walmart, which was cool to see), and the retailers' margins on those were at least 50%. As I said, the margin does depend heavily on the product, but do not assume that across-the-board average margins are anywhere near…

That is irrelevant because the entire organization’s profit margins are where increased wages would come from.

My point is that the entire organization's profit margins are not likely to be anywhere near 2-4%.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#169

Post by zeroonetwothree »

bombcar wrote: post #99
JWlrCk9PkipFTDq wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely agree that compulsory union membership (or compulsory membership of any political organisation for that matter) is a terrible idea!

The argument is understandable - if you're not forced to join the union and pay for it, then everyone will just not join and let the union still negotiate on their behalf; and it'll have no money to operate and fall apart. However, I'm sure there would be other ways (for example, if the union is negotiating with the company, the company can just pay for the union, it does indirectly through salary anyway).

If you aren’t in the union you should have to negotiate your own contract. I don’t see why you would get the fruits of the union’s labor if you aren’t a part of it.

That way if the union does a good job, workers will join, and if it does a bad job they won’t.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#170

Post by abirch »

tarr11 wrote: post #124
GuB-42 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that means less for the executives and shareholders. They may have to sell some of their properties, oh dear. Is it what usually happens when workers unionize? It seems like most of the times, the result is a higher price for the customer, at least when things go well.

It also means Amazon increases spending on automation. https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/22/amazon-debuts-a-fully-auto...

I was wondering how far away are they from fully automating the process? I always see their new robots.
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