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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#161

Post by breadloaf »

bilekas wrote: post #129
breadloaf wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that really depends. I was outsourcing to India when it was still cheap. I probably did something wrong, but I provided definition of the project, set of unit tests and access to git repository so they can upload the result. I got completely useless trash code, incoherent excuses and wasted time. I paid the company for their "work" and never considered outsourcing again. Sometimes cheap means horrendously expens…

This might get a bad rep but I've had this experience too. It's not a blanket statement though. Outsourcing is fine but you definitely have need to do your homework. That's why you see a few of the outsourcing companies being bought over by their employers, because they're good. Out of curiosity and related to another HN topic, have you ever hired freelancers directly?

I tried to on the Upwork. But it is really hit or miss there.

1. I got hardware electric engineer to help me with a design of PCB. Guy was worth every cent.

2. Got embedded developer on separate project. Guy pretended that he can do a lot. I tried to explain to him, that I need a USB CDC device driver in MCU which has USB PHY and I want Windows to recognize and use usbser.sys (generic COM driver) or something similar. He told me that he understand what he is doing, I sent him the dev kit and then he ghosted me and I have ended up doing it myself with TinyUSB.

So as I said, really hit and miss on Upwork. Some people are writing lofty skillset so they can get more per hour and then failing miserably.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#162

Post by breadloaf »

sumedh wrote: post #111
breadloaf wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that really depends. I was outsourcing to India when it was still cheap. I probably did something wrong, but I provided definition of the project, set of unit tests and access to git repository so they can upload the result. I got completely useless trash code, incoherent excuses and wasted time. I paid the company for their "work" and never considered outsourcing again. Sometimes cheap means horrendously expens…

How did you select the outsourcing company?

7 years ago, I don't really remember anymore.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#163

Post by 202206241203 »

BossingAround wrote: post #92

Every time I see this article reposted, I feel a pang of sadness. It's this chasing of the SF salary outside of the US that is supposed to be the holy grail of every engineer in rich EU countries. Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary. My experience is that companies that do offer extreme salaries do not do so out of competition with FAANG (since FAANG does not compete with itself gl…

> Well, if you get hired by FAANG in Germany, you don't get the SF salary.

I don't think Germany has at-will employment. Plus all the taxes to feed people who don't want to work.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#164

Post by 202206241203 »

kayoone wrote: post #61
yrgulation wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because you are at a senior level in that market. Few eu countries can compete with the uk in terms of pay and modern tech.

Working in Berlin tech, I found London salaries not that interesting considering the cost of living is easily 2x of Berlin.

That is when you manage to find a flat to rent in Berlin after queueing with 100 other people?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#165

Post by kortilla »

sidlls wrote: post #149
UweSchmidt wrote: post #139

Have we discussed the requirements for those fancy "Tier 3" jobs? I suspect it's overall a lot harder than most regular dev jobs. Many developers are medium sized fish in small ponds, where they can get away with moderate effectiveness, bad programming habits and little study, or, if they are good, they easily stand out and enjoy the honor of getting the harder tickets assigned, yet may not ever be really challenged.…

I work at such a "tier 3" company. It's not about the complexity of the tooling or the code. Most of that is stuff the typical Enterprise Java Dev can "grok" easily enough with just a bit of a learning curve. The problems of scale and infrastructure are mostly abstracted from engineers at these places already, and that's where the complex tooling comes in. The rest of it is unnecessarily complicated, mainly because t…

> with just a bit of a learning curve

This downplays how bad many developers are. I have some web dev friends that know how to use exactly one framework, one language, one source control, and never touch the cli out of a few commands stackoverflow told them to run. Changing from GitHub to bitbucket would be a major undertaking for them and that’s not even abandoning git.

They do well managing the small business apps they do, but they have no interest or motivation to learn anything different.

Now, keeping that bar in mind, there are devs worse than them that they complain about to me. They struggle with basic input validation (understanding what is executed on the client vs server, where strings can be trusted, etc).

Having come from Google, the tooling learning curve is only trivial if you already have a completely different mindset about what it means to be a programmer than 90% of the labor market.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#166

Post by marginalia_nu »

FredPret wrote: post #82
Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

By this logic, the best deal for a good developer will almost always be to start a company

A good developer actually sort of needs other people to make this happen, though. Unless the good developer is also good at business, marketing, and at a lot of other things that are easy to take for granted. While those facilitating roles are to some extent more replaceable, they are still quite necessary to allow the good developer to work their magic.

While polymath geniuses that excel in many different areas definitely do exist, they're a lot more rare than those who merely excel in one or two areas.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#167

Post by siva7 »

ido wrote: post #105
siva7 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dutch isn’t earning ten times less than the average US developer. At best two times less, but that’s it (and FAANG salaries in US tech hubs are in no way representative for average US dev salaries)

But it’s exactly the same type of complaint “salaries in SFBA are higher for the same job in Amsterdam”, why shouldn’t a Pakistani dev level the same complain about developers in Amsterdam?

For the same reason i outlined above: communication. Different time zones, language barriers, cultural barriers and so on. The communication between the SFBA and amsterdam team may still be easier due to more similiar cultures than between SFBA and pakistan.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#168

Post by jotm »

splittingTimes wrote: post #158

Humanities supposedly most brilliant minds work on the next e-billing system, AI on how to sell more crap that nobody really needs, keep a glorified message board afloat or enable the cancer that is advertisment. They should work on how to address the climate catastrophe, the waste/recycling problem, food security, sustainable agriculture and land/water use, medical devices/health care or how to fix the broken partic…

As individuals, and even as companies, we can't do much. Worrying about it is just stressing for no benefit to anyone.

Governments, elected by the citizens, need to address such strategic concerns.

And they actually do. In case it's not clear, most people just don't give a fuck. Hence the weak response to climate change, etc.

So don't stress, just live while you can.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#169

Post by jotm »

fnbr wrote: post #136
de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

Wait, really? That’s incredible! €1-2k for a 2-3 bedroom apartment in Vienna? You would barely see that anywhere in Canada, let alone a major city.

It's not that incredible considering availability, requirements, time from arrival to country to getting the keys, etc. But yeah, once you are renting it, it's pretty nice until you have to move.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#170

Post by de6u99er »

de6u99er wrote: post #126

Those high salaries remind me of the stories of heavy smokers who didn't die of cancer or COPD. I think it's very unlikely to get those high salaries in Europe. Comparing them to salaries in Silicon Valley without context isn't really smart. I have always tried to see bay area salaries as as risk compensation. E g. In Vienna/Austria a 2-3 bedroom apartment here is about 1-2k while in the bay area it's between 5-10k.…

I forgot to mention. 5 weeks of PTO or like in my case, after having paid into the system enough years, 6 weeks of PTO. Plus 100% paid sick leave! And lastl but not least between 12 and 24 months (parents' choice) parental leave which can be consumed half-half by both parents.
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