Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree. To me it's like saying passwords are broken because most people choose "password123". Or like saying dollar bills are bad because they can rip. Safety rails should be made of course, but if you aren't even maintaining basic hygiene within a system then I'm sorry but that's on you. People are learning to use better passwords, and people learned long ago to keep their paper money in a wallet. The same will…
How much do you think is the fair value of 1 bitcoin?
Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
161–170 of 245 posts
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
USDC is supposedly USD backed, so a reasonable person would presume someone who advertises FDIC insurance of cash would assume the USDC underlying USD is backed by FDIC. Seems like pretty clear fraud to me if the USDC isn't actually FDIC insured. If they meant only some of the cash (non USDC backed) was insured they should have said that.
> USDC is supposedly USD backed, so a reasonable person would presume someone who advertises FDIC insurance of cash would assume the USDC underlying USD is backed by FDIC. That is not how FDIC insurance works. If you don't hold USD, you don't enjoy any FDIC insurance, period. Not your USD, not your insurance. > If they meant only some of the cash (non USDC backed) was insured they should have said that. Judging from…
Agreed but I'd say this was misrepresented as they say USD is backed by FDIC. See below.
>If you don't hold USD, you don't enjoy any FDIC insurance, period. Not your USD, not your insurance.
USDC is USD backed, so one would conclude you actually do "hold" USD through the USDC security. Thus you are tricked into believing you have FDIC insurance on the USD secured by the USDC. "period."
>Judging from the text at the top of this thread, this is precisely what they said, so it's not fradulent.
What was said on the thread is that USD is FDIC backed. USDC is secured by USD, so one would reasonably conclude their USD underlying the USDC is FDIC insured (in fact it is not).
>At no point are they saying that they offer accounts protected by FDIC insurance--instead, they're saying that their USD reserves are in FDIC-insured accounts. So no misrepresentation going on.
But the USD reserves of the USDC __aren't_ completely FDIC insured so there is misrepresentation going on.
It's pretty evident to me here there was a slight of hand here that was intentional. The wording was intentional chosen to weasel out of the FDIC backing while leading the customer on to believe it is FDIC backed. A pretty common reasonable interpretation of the customer I think is to say "I own USDC which has underlying USD, and Voyager says USD itself is FDIC backed thus the full value of the USDC is insured." If that wasn't the case it seems pretty pointless to couple their twitter advertisements that advertise FDIC insurance and then goad you on to deposit USDC. The coupling was definitely intentional.
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps I just don’t understand fractional reserves.
The textbook example of fractional reserves: You are a bank. Sally gives you $100, so now you have $100 in cash as assets. Bob comes up to and asks for $80. You agree to give him $80, on the condition that he gives you $90 next week. Now you have $20 in cash and a $90 loan backing your $100 liability to Sally. Because that $20 in cash is less than $100, you have fractional reserves. Now, the real world is more compli…
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
USDC is supposedly USD backed, so a reasonable person would presume someone who advertises FDIC insurance of cash would assume the USDC underlying USD is backed by FDIC. Seems like pretty clear fraud to me if the USDC isn't actually FDIC insured. If they meant only some of the cash (non USDC backed) was insured they should have said that.
> USDC is supposedly USD backed, so a reasonable person would presume someone who advertises FDIC insurance of cash would assume the USDC underlying USD is backed by FDIC. That is not how FDIC insurance works. If you don't hold USD, you don't enjoy any FDIC insurance, period. Not your USD, not your insurance. > If they meant only some of the cash (non USDC backed) was insured they should have said that. Judging from…
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#165There's a myth that Voyager is FDIC insured. It's pure marketing. Voyager has an omnibus account with the Metropolitan Commercial Bank where Voyager's customers deposit their money. Voyager acts as the money manager of the omnibus account and has absolute control over the money. Metropolitan is a member of FDIC and is FDIC insured. In the case of the Metropolitan bank failing, the FDIC insurance kicks in to cover any…
I'd be interested if someone can comment with more information. Here are the details from Voyager's legal docs: > Customer understands and acknowledges that Customer may arrange to deposit United States Dollars (“USD” or “Cash”) into the Account. Cash deposited into the Customer’s Account is maintained in an omnibus account at Metropolitan Commercial Bank (the “Bank”), which is a member of the Federal Deposit Insuran…
Omnibus account is a shared account which Voyager has absolute control. See their language below where Metropolitan grants them the right on "movement of and holding of USD," i.e. they can move the money as they see fit.
"Voyager maintains an agreement with the Bank whereby the Bank provides all services associated with the movement of and holding of USD in connection with the provision of each Account."
As for Voyager customers withdrawing the money from Metropolitan, they can try. Curious to see how far they get.
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thats meaningless unless it's an audited by a top 4 firm.
You mean like Earnst & Young who was just fined $100 million for overlooking cheating by their employees on the ETHICS portion of the CPA exam? I agree something is severely broken about Tether, but it’s also clear that auditing firms can be crooked, too. I would not trust an audit to expose Tethers shortcomings. After all, the auditors can only report on the documentation provided to them … they specifically do not…
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#167There's a myth that Voyager is FDIC insured. It's pure marketing. Voyager has an omnibus account with the Metropolitan Commercial Bank where Voyager's customers deposit their money. Voyager acts as the money manager of the omnibus account and has absolute control over the money. Metropolitan is a member of FDIC and is FDIC insured. In the case of the Metropolitan bank failing, the FDIC insurance kicks in to cover any…
"Through our strategic relationships with our banking partners, all customers’ USD held with Voyager is now FDIC insured. That means that in the rare event your USD funds are compromised due to the _company_ or our banking partner’s failure, you are guaranteed a full reimbursement (up to $250,000)."
https://invest-voyager.medium.com/usd-held-with-voyager-is-n...
https://www.investvoyager.com/blog/voyager-is-now-fdic-insur...
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#168There's a myth that Voyager is FDIC insured. It's pure marketing. Voyager has an omnibus account with the Metropolitan Commercial Bank where Voyager's customers deposit their money. Voyager acts as the money manager of the omnibus account and has absolute control over the money. Metropolitan is a member of FDIC and is FDIC insured. In the case of the Metropolitan bank failing, the FDIC insurance kicks in to cover any…
I'd be interested if someone can comment with more information. Here are the details from Voyager's legal docs: > Customer understands and acknowledges that Customer may arrange to deposit United States Dollars (“USD” or “Cash”) into the Account. Cash deposited into the Customer’s Account is maintained in an omnibus account at Metropolitan Commercial Bank (the “Bank”), which is a member of the Federal Deposit Insuran…
"Therefore, each Customer is a customer of the Bank", ehm, does the bank know about it? Each bank account must have a legal owner (or multiple ones for a joint account) and I somehow doubt Voyager would put their entire customer base as the joint owners of their bank account.
The "Cash in the Account is insured up to $250,000 per depositor" part is deliberately misleading. As far as the bank is concerned, there is only one depositor - Voyager.
In general, you need to look at specific scenarios:
1. Voyager goes belly up and you still had $1000 on your account. You could:
1.1. Sue Voyager. The court will likely rule you as a creditor granting you a claim against some fraction of their residual assets. You will get anywhere between $0 and $1000 depending on other creditors, their claims and the amount of remaining assets. Quite likely, not much.
1.2. Sue the bank. The bank will show that the omnibus account still holds some USD (that might be less than the end users' deposits) and will tell you to go sue Voyager as a creditor.
1.3. File a claim with FDIC. They will tell you to bite dust because they cover the business between the bank and Voyager. You are neither of those and have no business with them.
2. The bank goes belly up. Voyager will file a claim with FDIC and get $250K for ALL users. This will make them default on the users' claims, hence go to 1.1.
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#169> We are in discussions with various parties regarding additional liquidity and the go-forward strategy for the company. While we don’t have anything else to share today, we are working diligently and hope to have more information to share soon. Translation: we are insolvent. The action we have taken prevents a run that will wipe out our working capital. We have been running a fractional reserve all along. This is ge…
Re: Voyager suspends trading, deposits, withdrawals, and loyalty rewards
#170If you’ve never read about what markets were like 100+ years ago (at least in the United States), it’s enlightening. Turns out that people lost money left and right due to fraud and mismanagement. Why would we expect anything different now?