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Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

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Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#161

Post by titzer »

dalbasal wrote: post #45

One of those topics where the meta is richer than the actual science. I remember my Dad mentioning as a child. The public interest is interesting in itself. Not the the science isn't interesting. Population/behavioural studies like this are quite interesting. Animal behaviour is interesting, especially group behaviours where dynamics can play out. That said, what was he actually trying to learn? If you take the same…

> That said, what was he actually trying to learn?

> So, we know from both logic and evidence

Just wondering where evidence comes from, if not experiments? I, for one, find the results of the experiment surprising and useful instead of the "logic" and vague notions that we might come up with by theorizing.

> how do we get from insights about mice to insights about people?

Science is a whole lot of looking at, studying, and cataloging things, and the "insights about people" aren't necessarily the goal. Rather, that part seems so often biased to support a worldview, philosophy, or political agenda that I hope we leave it out more often!

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#163

Post by BeFlatXIII »

h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Why not use some more humane method of euthanasia, such as a nitrogen atmosphere?

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#166

Post by bequanna »

GuB-42 wrote: post #159
shanusmagnus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for e…

It is not uncommon for people whose work involve a lot of death and suffering to indulge in dark humor. It is not that they don't care, quite the opposite in fact.

Laughing at the suffering of an animal that you caused isn’t exactly what I would call “dark humor”. It’s just wrong.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#167

Post by acrobatsunfish »

bombcar wrote: post #99
goda90 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is such a common need, I can't help but think they should've invested in a controlled atmosphere killing setup to reduce the panic.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#Animal_...

Someone I knew caught a raccoon and tried to euthanize it in a freezer which I quickly put a stop to and instead opened a CO2 bottle in the freezer which quietly put an end to the issue.

Hypothermia is a "better" way to go then co2 asphyxiation if your temperature is sufficiently cold, probably hard to do for a raccoon since they can survive winter. Next time use nitrogen or helium, or like most people do, shoot it.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#168

Post by osigurdson »

generalizations wrote: post #141
osigurdson wrote: post #80

>> a 4½-foot cube—with everything a mouse could ever desire They likely desired a larger cube.

There were only 8 mice in that cube when the experiment started. Seems like that would be more than enough space for them. That the mice overfilled their living space through reproduction is not a limitation of the experiment, but an outcome.

A fairly obvious outcome with exponential growth - eventually there would be too many mice and bad things would happen. The fact the the population eventually went to zero is somewhat interesting but it would be necessary to run the experiment many times to draw any conclusions on that point. Overall the knowledge gained was not nearly worth the suffering that the mice endured.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#169

Post by geoduck14 »

bombcar wrote: post #99
goda90 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is such a common need, I can't help but think they should've invested in a controlled atmosphere killing setup to reduce the panic.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#Animal_...

Someone I knew caught a raccoon and tried to euthanize it in a freezer which I quickly put a stop to and instead opened a CO2 bottle in the freezer which quietly put an end to the issue.

I actually thought that freezing was one of the most humane ways to ... euthanize an animal

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#170

Post by protonbob »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #133
protonbob wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a vegan but I think it would be useful for every meat eater to humanely kill and prepare an animal to eat at least once in their life. Having done so, I think I learned a lot about death and whether or not I was willing to eat an animal after preparing a few myself. I also think it is important to be aware of our own mortality and to think about it a healthy amount. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori

I've thought about the mortality angle quite a bit, for the reasons you say, and can see how that would be useful -- even something as simple as fishing can force you to confront some realities about life and death and how we relate to the world. Did your behavior change after your experience?

I would say I do eat less meat but that is more for health reasons. Also, I am more grateful to eat meat when I am more aware of the sacrifice that it takes. As far as the realities of life and death, I would say that I am pretty comfortable with them. I can't generalize that, however, as faith is very important to me and I do have confidence in my life after death.
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