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Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

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Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#161

Post by endominus »

Maursault wrote: post #137

Seems clear the author: 1) knows next to nothing about Middle-Earth or Tolkien's larger work and honestly admits it, though continues to make sweeping generalizations about a subject they admittedly know little about; 2) knows nothing about classics, ancient history nor history of technology except perhaps bullet points gleaned from a pop documentary, iow, author displays extremely pedestrian and shallow knowledge or…

Agree completely on the writing style. Even were the subject interesting - world-building in fiction generally is to me - the intensely hostile tone puts me off almost immediately. To be honest, I couldn't read past the first quarter without just rolling my eyes and closing the tab. It's an affectation that I feel has become more popular of late; this eye-rolling, obnoxious, "ha ha don't you hate reading this? Isn't this whole article just infuriating? Why don't you share it with your friends so they can get equally outraged?" kind of article. Perhaps it does work as a way to game engagement metrics, but it makes a lot of commentary stupider and more unpleasant than it needs to be.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#162

Post by samus »

singron wrote: post #26

The world described in LoTR is not physically like ours. For instance, the orcs aren't described as bad guys because of their upbringing, culture, or subjective perception by the other races. Orcs are intrinsically evil. All the bad creatures of middle earth are described as if they radiate a natural and unalienable evil aura from their being. There are two explanations for this: (1) this is an accurate explanation o…

Orcs and other beings in LotR are evil because Morgoth infused the world with his essence and his ill will. At the end of the First Age, he was a shadow of his former self and was easily defeated by the other Valar. But since he basically turned Arda into his Ring, truly eliminating him would probably meant remaking Arda from scratch. Therefore, he was just cast out into the Void, and the Valar retreated to the few parts that were still intact. Of course, that's the official mythology, and the truth might be rather different.

There is no inherent stigma against industry in itself in LotR. Many peoples (Noldor, Numenoreans, Dwarfes) engaged in industry, but it tends to further greed and hunger for power, which makes individuals and whole societies easier to manipulate and play off against each other.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#163

Post by ncmncm »

barry-cotter wrote: post #121
ncmncm wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only observe the coincidence: while we had Neanderthal about, no moves toward civilization. Any reason would be speculation; maybe they and the Denisovans knew better? If so, they may get the last laugh, as it crashes down around us. Australia (Sahul, really) was a place with (apparently) no Neanderthal or Denisovans. Whatever would develop only in their absence should have happened there first. Or maybe in Sundala…

> Australia (Sahul, really) was a place with (apparently) no Neanderthal or Denisovans. Things have changed. > Denisova admixture and the first modern human dispersals into Southeast Asia and Oceania > It has recently been shown that ancestors of New Guineans and Bougainville Islanders have inherited a proportion of their ancestry from Denisovans, an archaic hominin group from Siberia. However, only a sparse sampling…

The final sentence suggests there really were Denisovans running around in southeast Asia, way back when. But did they get as far as New Guinea / Australia?

It's a bit hard to imagine a mechanism by which presence of Neanderthals and Denisovans could have so effectively stalled development of the trappings of civilization. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. We like to think of ourselves as totally badass, but they could have been moreso. Maybe it was unsafe to settle down and build a village where they might swoop in and burn you out. And, our own ancestors could have been doing the same to them. It happened that "we" won.

Another problem is that Neanderthals and Denisovans are not known to have been in Africa. But there could have been any number of other, unknown badass H. species in Africa, besides. Or, maybe, why develop civilization "when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world"? [0]

[0] https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/the-worst-mist...

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#165

Post by lioeters »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #88
Barrin92 wrote: post #16

The industrial revolution is in the book, it's the actual antagonist of the story. Tolkien was a devout Catholic distributist and Hobbingen was his ideal Catholic community of self reliant Hobbits who answer to wizards and kings, not to factory floor managers and administrators.

The premise of the rather fascinating "Last Ringbearer" is that Mordor and the orcs were on the verge of a successful industrial revolution, only to be thwarted by the racist, imperialist alliance of the Fellowship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

The book in English can be downloaded from this page: https://ymarkov.livejournal.com/280578.html

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#166

Post by moron4hire »

comex wrote: post #145
kqr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is common, fantasy stories depict individual heroes overthrowing bureaucracies. (Harry Potter is an obvious exception where it's the other way around.)

> (Harry Potter is an obvious exception where it's the other way around.) It is? Harry spent a lot of time contending with bureaucracy, whether in the form of overbearing schoolteachers or a corrupt Ministry of Magic. One of the series’ major villains, Dolores Umbridge, is sort of a personification of bureaucracy.

Harry Potter is distinctly about protecting the "sanctity" of institutions, at the expense of individuality. Umbridge may be the personification of bureaucracy in our minds, but in JKR's, she's a threat to the image of British boarding schools being elite, character-building places for children. Note that, as a disciplinarian, she's functionally equivalent to Snape. That was not Umbridge's "sin". Her sin was teaching to the test, removing the academic rigor of Hogwarts, presumably leaving it on par with lesser schools.

We might even look at her clothing and, in our minds, it looks very conservative. But in the wizard world, we never see anyone wearing such outlandishly colorful clothing. What looks like a makeup MLM saleswoman's outfit to us is a radical expression of individual style in the HP world.

In Harry Potter, individuality comes at a price. The more you express individualistic thought, living outside of the norms of society, the more impoverished you need to be to remain "good". Look at the Weasleys. Look at the Lovegoods. Those that attempt to be successful and individuals are default evil.

HP is so incredibly conservative, it's surprising everyone was surprised by JKR's politics.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#167

Post by samus »

quantified wrote: post #65

I just wonder why he doesn't have army-flattening magic? Why does he draw his sword so much? Talking to eagles is cool, but lifting and catapulting boulders would be much more effective at defeating orcs and whatnot.

The last time the Ainur wielded that kind of magic, during the aptly named War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, entire continents were rendered uninhabitable and sunk below the sea. It might or might not have been an admonishment about the unprecedented destructive power of nukes.

The Istari were sent to lead and inspire the peoples of Middle Earth, and being clad in flesh was supposed to give them greater empathy for their plight. By leading with force they likely would not have been able to resist the temptation of the Rings of Power ane would have turned into dark lords themselves, like what happened with Saruman.

They could still access their full power, but were only supposed to use it in extreme emergencies. The Balrog of Moria was unaccounted for in the plans of the Ainur, and likely would have wrecked Gandalf's plans completely even if the Fellowship had managed to escape it.

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#169

Post by TooSmugToFail »

avmich wrote: post #57

From https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v21/n21/francis-spufford/ope... : It was around this time that an encounter took place between two outlooks almost equally marginal to the spirit of the times in Britain. Arthur C. Clarke, by now a well-established science fiction writer as well as the author of the pioneering paper on satellite communications, had been growing increasingly irritated by the theological science fic…

Excellent essay, thank you!

Re: Why hasn't Middle Earth had an Industrial Revolution?

#170

Post by usrusr »

yyyk wrote: post #140
usrusr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are giving far too much credit to internal conflict. Trapped between an empire of orcs on one side and those super racist elves on the other side (they certainly do consider humans a lower species, and how could you blame them given the humans' shocking lack of eternal youth), how much internal conflict can you expect? Even the most incompetent dictator wouldn't have a problem getting people to stand together.

I'm not sure I get you. We were talking about possible internal conflict within the Orcs. Not sure Sauron gets their automatic allegiance, and if he does not, that's all the reason we need. As for humans, I don't have a good explanation there at all.

I was referring to the second paragraph. Orcs usually don't pay taxes to Gondor.
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