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Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

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Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#161

Post by LordDragonfang »

adam_arthur wrote: post #114
jasonlotito wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Competitive markets produce societally best outcomes Define "societally best outcomes". By using the word "societally", you are saying it's not he best outcome for the business, nor is it the best outcome for the employees, nor the best outcome for the customers, but the best outcome for the society at large. Your MTA example shows that a union is great for workers. Please explain. Considering unions are used succe…

MTA is great for MTA employees. The remaining 10 million or so New Yorkers pay the cost. You can't assess these things in isolation. If the Foxconn factory unionized, you can bet iPhones would cost hundreds of dollars more. Who bears that cost? Consumers of iPhone/society at large (when extrapolating to other businesses)

>If the Foxconn factory unionized, you can bet iPhones would cost hundreds of dollars more.

I'd be willing to bet that they don't. iPhone prices are set at the highest price that Apple determines people are willing to pay, not by the cost to produce it; even the costs that do exist are mostly materials, not labor costs. Labor costs are close to 1% of the sticker price [1]. This is the same as the argument that erroneously claims that if you paid fast food workers well it would lead to $10 big macs, when other countries with much higher wages have comparable prices to ours.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/news/what-it-costs-apple-make-i...

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#162

Post by bestcoder69 »

icelancer wrote: post #127
bestcoder69 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Distorted wages for labor is not good for broader society Real life on planet earth disagrees pretty hard with you. Google "___est countries". Pick a metric that shows policy impacts. Say, health, happiness, etc. The kind of metrics that aren't abstract BS and can't be cherry-picked. Pick the first, say, five. Then look up their unionization rates. I'll spoil it for you. Nordic countries win (it doesn't even matter…

If you're on the far right of the bell curve of earnings, you might not find studies based on the average too convincing. > Google "___est countries". How about I Google which countries have the largest revenues for their technology companies, and the senior-level salaries of their employees?

Have fun doing so! It will answer a different question than the one we're talking about. Report back if you want.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#163

Post by Xeoncross »

claytonjy wrote: post #138
Xeoncross wrote: post #110

I don't understand unions for tech workers. We're not living in shacks rented to us by the company and can't afford a bus ticket to a new city or school to start a new life. We're making six figures here. Want more pay? Sit on your butt and do leetcode or practice interviews and network with other rich programmers. Move to a tropical island and work remote. Heck, you don't even need to go to college and just about an…

Just because conditions are good, doesn't mean they couldn't be better, or that they will always remain good. Demands like unionization are made most effectively when the demanding party has high leverage. Unionization is a preventative measure against a future potential backslide in conditions. Not every worker can or wants to work for a FAANG, whether because of skill, time available to study, logistics like locati…

Removing my skills or value proposition from the equation sounds very dangerous. This sounds like giving power to bean counters and exalting mediocrity.

When I want 'better', I work for it and get it myself, not by schmoozing the union bosses to get on their good side or paying union fees for 20 years to build up tenure.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#164

Post by busterarm »

jasonlotito wrote: post #124
busterarm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

> I bargain for myself, thanks. Judging by that history, you aren't doing so well. Good luck, and hopefully things improve!

I haven't been part of a union for more than 20 years now. I'm doing great.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#165

Post by ceejayoz »

native_samples wrote: post #149
gnicholas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to details about this?

It's worth remembering that the event that, uh, kickstarted their drive for unionization was the site's management banning a project that was raising money to support violence against conservatives (the actual physical kind, not words). The details are a bit fuzzy now but iirc some of the hard-left employees didn't like the ToS being enforced in that case, because whilst they accepted the project was calling for viol…

> raising money to support violence against conservatives

Let's be clear; the title was "Always Punch Nazis", not "Always Punch Conservatives". If you're mixing the two up, that's more on you than the author.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#166

Post by pessimizer »

71a54xd wrote: post #17

Big no thanks to this. If you hate where you work this much, improve yourself and work somewhere else. Replacing at-will with "just cause", progressive disciplining, with criteria for performance improvement plans. If you're three years into a career in tech (technical or not) and you haven't figured out that being PIP'd or indirectly told you're fucking up - making this language "nicer" isn't going to help anyone. A…

> making this language "nicer" isn't going to help anyone.

What is this a reference to? Do you think at-will employment has something to do with woke language or am I reading this wrong?

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#167

Post by adam_arthur »

cmeacham98 wrote: post #156
adam_arthur wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, combination of the misaligned incentives of government coupled with a public sector union. Given the lack of a profit motive, a well run government needs incentive structures to motivate results towards societally good outcomes. Too bad none of the local, state, federal governments do. Would be easy to institute if the will were there though Edit: To address your edit, the private subway systems failed after NY…

You seem to be magically appending "with a public sector union" to the real cause of the majority of MTA's problems. Sorry, but I don't buy this guilt by association: How does the union cause a significant portion of MTA's problems?

It compounds them. Government has no incentive for real results, union leads to highly overpaid employees who are frequently caught not working on the clock.

Two separate problems for sure, both bad for the rest

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#168

Post by AlexandrB »

adam_arthur wrote: post #143
pessimizer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The no-poach cartel that ruled big tech for like a decade would like to have a word.

That's an oligopoly/cartel, which represents monopoly power on labor demand, and is illegal

Did anyone go to jail over it? No. I doubt anyone was even fired. It was settled for $415 million split 4 ways between the companies involved[1]. So it's "illegal", but in terms of repercussions experienced by the offenders I'd say it's up there with a $150 speeding ticket.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/apple-google-others-...

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#169

Post by busterarm »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #121
throwaway_95283 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just move the office to a low tax country / state. Union people will refuse to move there.

Who wouldn't want to move from a vibrant coastal city to a suburb in Arkansas?

My relocation from NYC to Miami has been nothing but roses.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#170

Post by s1artibartfast »

ep103 wrote: post #10
s1artibartfast wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Minimum 3% annual CoL raises Weird that they call it a CoL raise. If it isn't tied to cost, it is just an minimum annual raise.

Weird that you're arguing that 3% isn't a CoL raise, when inflation has been pegged to 2.25% for decades, and is currently 8%+

My point is simply that CoL changes aren't fixed and fluctuate. I think it is weird to call it a CoL raise if you are guaranteed it even if CoL doesn't change or goes down.

I'm not sure where you are getting that inflation has been pegged to anything. 2% might be an average, but it has gone everywhere from -2% to 6% in the last two decades.

Besides, inflation is not CoL.

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