Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 211 posts

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#161

Post by zeroonetwothree »

swatcoder wrote: post #39
no_wizard wrote: post #3

Could we feasibly just run desalination stations from the coasts and pipe the water - like oil - to fill up these reservoirs? Setting cost aside for a second, is there any reason not to do something like this?

We call them “desalination” plants, but the salt doesn’t just disappear. The more fresh water you have them produce, the more salt (brackish water) you need to manage as well. So even while you may imagine the ocean as a limitless supply of water, there’s only so far you can scale desalination.

To be fair the ocean is still pretty big. Also, water doesn’t disappear from the earth…

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#162

Post by jfoutz »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #159
jfoutz wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm by no means an expert or a lawyer or someone you should listen to. But this may hint at the complexity. A lot of water rights come from Spanish land grants ~330 years ago. And those were guaranteed by treaty after the Mexican American war. So, the U.S. can do whatever it wants, but treaties are in this weird space below the constitution but above a simple bill through congress to become law. Water rights are gene…

Mexican water rights were considered separate from the underlying land rights unless they were explicitly included in the grant. Moreover, Mexican title was required to be registered with the government shortly after annexation. Most of those titles were in turn siezed by various quasi-legal means, which is where cities like Berkeley come from. There are relatively few water rights remaining from Mexican annexation,…

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Your point about nightmareishly confusing hellscape is what I just what was trying to get across.

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#163

Post by jandrewrogers »

wolverine876 wrote: post #27
ar813 wrote: post #10

The answer to this problem lies here: “Entsminger pointed out that roughly 80% of the river’s flow is used for agriculture, and most of that for thirsty crops like alfalfa, which is mainly grown for cattle, both in the U.S. and overseas.” The simple solution would be to raise prices on water such that it disincentivizes growing water hungry crops than alfalfa for example. The west’s water crisis is less about cities…

Yes, market prices on water and beef (incorporating what are now climate externalities) would seem to solve these problems. Why isn't that being considered? Remember when conservatives, neo-liberals, and libertarians supported the market as a solution for everything? Of course, we would need a reasonable amount of water available to consumers at below-market rates.

Some US beef is already produced with private water traded on the free market, at least in the western US. This is already priced into the cost of that beef. The price of water fluctuates every year but as a percentage of cost for beef, it isn't that much.

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#164

Post by matkoniecz »

Jistern wrote: post #152
jmyeet wrote: post #6

At least this article notes that the vast majority of water usage is agriculture. This isn't something cities could or should solve by switching to (expensive) desalination to effectively subsidize agriculture. Most notably, alfalfa is mentioned here as farmers are going to have to switch to less water-intensive crops. Decreasing alfalfa production may well impact the ability to feed cattle. In the short term, that's…

From 2005 to 2015, Israel changed its entire water system by building desalination plants. Like Central and Southern California today, Israel used to issue similar dire warnings about freshwater supplies running dangerously low. These days, believe it or not, Israel now exports freshwater. Yes. tiny, little, arid Israel exports freshwater to neighboring Jordan. Freshwater, like agricultural products, seems to be a pr…

> Second, I assume the discharge water from washing machines could easily be used to water most of the landscaping in Southern California.

detergents used for washing likely make it a bad idea

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#165

Post by supertrope »

coryrc wrote: post #119
kolanos wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0] [0]: https://hayandforage.com/article-3825-year-end-hay-exports-s...

Because we grow a lot in the Midwest where water comes from the sky.

And the Oglala Aquifier. But at least that water crisis is in the future not right now.

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#166

Post by matkoniecz »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #70
jmyeet wrote: post #6

At least this article notes that the vast majority of water usage is agriculture. This isn't something cities could or should solve by switching to (expensive) desalination to effectively subsidize agriculture. Most notably, alfalfa is mentioned here as farmers are going to have to switch to less water-intensive crops. Decreasing alfalfa production may well impact the ability to feed cattle. In the short term, that's…

Desalination isn't that much more expensive than reservoir water. I wish urban areas would just build 'em and look at farmers and the rest of the country and say "OK now what?"

Can you provide any source for that? It seems obviously wrong given both capital and maintenance costs.

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#167

Post by supertrope »

rcpt wrote: post #109
bcrosby95 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But you can't ask California to solve "its" water problem while solving everyone's food problem. One of them has to give.

Water should be priced the same for everyone, there's no reason that alfalfa farmers should pay a hundredth of a percent that I do for the same resource.

Nations will never stop agricultural subsidies due to national food security and rural district votes. It’s not just price supports and crop insurance but dams to deliver water and electricity.

Tap water is drinkable and plumbed into your home. That’s why it costs more than canal water that’s neither.

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#168

Post by dendrite9 »

ABeeSea wrote: post #79
dendrite9 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question of who owns the water right is important. The doctrine for water usage is different in the western US and the eastern US. Some of this is due to geography, and some due to the history of settlement. Here are a few useful links that discuss the differences. https://nationalaglawcenter.org/overview/water-law/ https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2014/03/an-introduction-to-water-l... https://extension.okstate.edu/fact…

So change the laws.

And do what about the geography?

Changing the laws is not something that just happens and solves everything. If we're fixing legal doctrines from westward expansion of the US there is a lot to fix. I'd propose taking back the patchworks of land gifted to the railroads, or at least forcibly consolidate them into contiguous blocks.

Maybe those water rights should be given to the tribes who used to live in the watersheds. Let them set the prices.

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#169

Post by bearhall »

matkoniecz wrote: post #164
Jistern wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From 2005 to 2015, Israel changed its entire water system by building desalination plants. Like Central and Southern California today, Israel used to issue similar dire warnings about freshwater supplies running dangerously low. These days, believe it or not, Israel now exports freshwater. Yes. tiny, little, arid Israel exports freshwater to neighboring Jordan. Freshwater, like agricultural products, seems to be a pr…

> Second, I assume the discharge water from washing machines could easily be used to water most of the landscaping in Southern California. detergents used for washing likely make it a bad idea

tell us you didn’t really read the parent without telling us you didn’t really read the parent

Re: Big water cutbacks ordered amid Colorado River shortage

#170

Post by jshen »

adrianN wrote: post #151
jshen wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are advocating for famine and war.

Or they're advocating for eating less water intensive things. If you for example grow wheat instead of grapes or almonds your likely reduce global famine a little bit.

That’s meat, it’s the most water intensive. How much do you want to get that she/he eats meat everyday? What about you?
Post reply on HN