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Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

talesoftimesforgotten.com

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Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#161

Post by panick21_ »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #149
dqpb wrote: post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

> It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. Except it's exactly like that. Huge numbers of people died; population cratered.

That actually happened 100s of years after the political fall of the empire and it also happened to a large extent in the East where the empire persisted.

So the political fall of the West as the primary factor in de-urbanization is not really a good argument.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#162

Post by majormajor »

namaria wrote: post #79
Ekaros wrote: post #15

So often any of these single causal theories forget to look at timespan. Which was either decades or centuries... If system survived previously with mostly same things in place there is really no reason why such thing as lead pipes would be the cause of downfall part. By any reasonable conclusion the culprit in such case should be some disruptive innovation. In the end gradual natural degradation of system is much mo…

This line of publishing, much like nutritional science, is great for scientists. You can fudge data into flip flopping conclusions every couple of years. Infinite papers = tenure.

And here's a reason science can die in complex societies: because people want to score points over engaging with it. On a surface level it's easy to say "suggestions are changing, therefore it's a scam." But it's also a highly-expected outcome of a field being actively researched! Working as intended = ammunition for those who want to play games instead.

That's not to say there is no fraud, or bad actors. It's just to say that your comment falls hideously short as a potential way of spotting bad acting, so far short that it looks intentionally misleading.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#165

Post by dukeofdoom »

googlryas wrote: post #102
dukeofdoom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on Canadian Prices, a working guy would spend. And not even going very far from home. Gas $100 Beer $50 Cigs $15 Ontario Park Campsite $59/night x 2 = $120 Firewood 2 x $15 = $30 Some basic sausages and food = $50 Total $375 Min Wage $15/hour. Hours of work = 25 hours Actually it would take more than 25 hours, because most likely that person does not live with Grandma and has shelter / food expenses. So might n…

This has to be some kind of joke post. Or, you've never been camping. Or, more likely, you're just constructing scenarios to fit your perspective instead of being honest with yourself. - Cigarettes and beer are a necessary part of camping? - Not going far from home, but using ~23 liters of gas($50 @ 210/L) just to get there? - Staying at the most expensive camp site(AA fee schedule) in Ontario? - Paying for firewood…

People counting and trying to ration how many individual beers this poor guy gets to have on his one camping trip are proving my point. As if that really changes the equation. Also, I'm not sure if you are aware, but they shrank the size of beers.

I listed beer and cigarettes, because its a common vice of lower class working people. Less so than it used to be. But $15 dollars is just for one pack. So the guy is rationing his cigarettes if that makes you feel better.

Also just tanked up, and it was $130. So a $50 would be less than half a tank of gas in my car. It's about a 2 or 3 hour drive one way, if you live in Toronto and go camping up north and/or get stuck in traffic.

Most of Ontario, at least the populated parts, do not have free camping anywhere near, and other places have no trespassing laws. Cheaper campsites do exist, but really not by that much. $35 is pretty common, at least it was a few years ago. But do you really want to be stuck by the highway listening to cars going by in your budget campsite. I thought Provisional parks were built for the citizens to enjoy nature. And if you're going to save up for camping trip for so long, I hope you at least go to a good place.

You can't collect firewood anywhere you paid for camping. That has been my experience. I definitely would not try collecting firewood in a provincial park. I've read about someone that collected mushrooms in a local park, and they were fined over 5k. You're also not allowed to bring wood with you.

Also, I just came back from the grocery store. A bag of cherries, which are in season, btw, were $15/kg. Low quality pork sausages (full of fat) are over $10. Salmon or any fresh fish fillet $25+. Real food, or even "processed corn" food prices are sky rocketing in Canada. If it was me going camping, $50 that would even be that much for Friday Evening, Saturday, and Sunday morning.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#166

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #83
Ekaros wrote: post #15

So often any of these single causal theories forget to look at timespan. Which was either decades or centuries... If system survived previously with mostly same things in place there is really no reason why such thing as lead pipes would be the cause of downfall part. By any reasonable conclusion the culprit in such case should be some disruptive innovation. In the end gradual natural degradation of system is much mo…

> So often any of these single causal theories forget to look at timespan. Which was either decades or centuries... I don't think anyone is (was?) suggesting that someone replaced the pipes overnight and they were all dead the next morning, but rather that it was an extremely gradual process that after centuries of extending its implantation managed to reduce cognitive capabilities by a couple points, etc. The simple…

Water piping isn't likely the primary cause of Roman lead poisoning. They were putting (acidic) wine into lead ewers to sweeten it and directly applying lead acetate powder to food.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#167

Post by dukeofdoom »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #146
googlryas wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even spending $50 in one direction on gas isn't insane for a weekend camping trip, a couple hours of highway driving at current prices, but I don't think anyone would consider that "not far from home" as OP stated. > For what it's worth, this is not allowed in many parks. Sure, but you don't need to camp in parks. That helps save on the $60/night fee as well. > You'll probably buy some special meat to grill, marshmal…

> never drank $25 of beer per day(while camping), never bought cigarettes A bigger problem with the itemization of cigarettes is that listing them as a camping expense implies that you smoke more while camping than you would otherwise, which makes no sense.

I listed beer and cigarettes, because its a common vice of lower class working people. Less so than it used to be. But $15 dollars is just for one pack in Ontario. So the guy is rationing his cigarette pack over 2 days.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#168

Post by dukeofdoom »

panick21_ wrote: post #156
dukeofdoom wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that happening. Thinking about Canada. The other day I calculated it would take 25 hours of work for the minimum wage worker to afford a weekend camping. And I think that's a pretty good indication we're pretty close collapse. Workers not being paid enough, and out of control inflation is how the soviet system collapsed.

> Workers not being paid enough, and out of control inflation is how the soviet system collapsed. No its not actually. If anything the Soviet system collapsed because the elites didn't really like it that much. The elites had lost interest in preserving the system. Elites didn't like the party discipline. There is a reason why Soviet collapsed and China didn't. Just having demonstrations and unhappy population does m…

Workers going on a mass strike across the Easter Block countries in the "Solidarity" movement in the late 80s is how its generally viewed as being the beginning of the end of the soviet system.

The communist governments were put in a position where there were going to have to massacre their own people openly revolting in massive strikes.

I don't think Chinese government would survive another Tiananmen square incident.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#169

Post by mkr-hn »

notahacker wrote: post #110
dqpb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rome was just a few sparks away from triggering an industrial revolution a thousand years early That’s a pretty amazing idea.

I remember reading a very entertaining story as a kid by John Christopher (typically an author of juvenile sf) in which basically the opposite happened (the protagonists are transported to an alternative 1981 in which the Roman Empire survived in stable form basically unchanged, and they're able to transform its fortunes with longbows and pendulums... although helping the underground Pope legitimise Christianity as a…

It's a bit older than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pit_and_the_Pendulum

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#170

Post by dukeofdoom »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #101
5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone from the other side of the planet (former USSR), this list feels very weird. I can't imagine paying for a campsite (nobody here does, you just go wherever you want and take whatever place is available), or firewood (you can always find a dry tree trunk somewhere along the road, or there's a friend of a friend who will bring some from his own house). So although our minimum wages are absolutely atrocious b…

> For someone from the other side of the planet I'm in North America and the list still feels very weird. Going camping at a premium campsite alone (e.g. not splitting the bill with friends) only to consume $50 of beer and $15 of cigarettes is kind of a hilarious definition of camping. FWIW, there are places where open camping is allowed in the Canada and the United States. The OP was using a specific car-camping sit…

I couldn't disagree more. A lot of working class people smoke, and when they go camping they typically drink beer. Let's say its a divorced dad, taking his son camping and fishing on the one weekend he has custody. A fairly common scenario. He might not drink the full case, but he would probably bring one. Especially if his friends are campsite near by and they might drop by.

There might be places where you can openly camp in Canada and United States. I lived in BC and those where possible to find. In Ontario not anywhere near cities were people live.

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