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Brave’s use of direct mailers

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Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#161

Post by jonathansampson »

morganvachon wrote: post #158
jonathansampson wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave doesn't harvest or collect any user data; we explicitly requested that no names be printed on these mailers (which was the case prior to this recent batch). You're mistaken about the other issues as well (they are every bit as overblown and misrepresented as this present issue). "Stealing money from creators" is quite misleading. When Brave held its token sale in 2017, we allocated 300M tokens to the User Growt…

I appreciate the attempt to explain your company's bad behavior, but I'm not convinced. And to be fair, you're not alone in making mistakes in the arena of privacy and security; all the major browsers have privacy-averse settings and "anti-features". The difference with your company is that you falsely advertise yourself as the one true private browser, while simultaneously profiting from your users' personal data. I…

You've mischaracterized features of Brave. Our code is open-source, it's not difficult to literally "go to the source," (https://code.brave.com and https://github.com/brave) and test the claims of others. You claim that Brave profits off of user data--show me where that is the case. Brave does not collect any user data; we were found to be the "most private" popular browser by reputable researchers in this regard: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf

Brave has never been "caught" collecting user data, or abusing user data. Not a single instance of this exists. We believe in "Can't be evil" over "Don't be evil," which means we aim to preclude the potential for abuse at the design stage of ever major effort tied to Brave, and our services/offerings. On the other end, the harvesting and leaking of user data is [standard] in all other major browsers.

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#162

Post by eli »

saalweachter wrote: post #159
eli wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that

US junk mail volume is something in the 6 million ton range, and paper production releases 3-10 pounds of CO2 / pound of paper, depending on whether it is virgin or recycled. (Regoogling that second figure returns some ranges as low as 1-2 lb/lb, which would put junk mail at like 0.2-0.4 crypto.)

Your co2 from crypto number seems low. Is that perhaps just bitcoin?

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#163

Post by saalweachter »

eli wrote: post #162
saalweachter wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US junk mail volume is something in the 6 million ton range, and paper production releases 3-10 pounds of CO2 / pound of paper, depending on whether it is virgin or recycled. (Regoogling that second figure returns some ranges as low as 1-2 lb/lb, which would put junk mail at like 0.2-0.4 crypto.)

Your co2 from crypto number seems low. Is that perhaps just bitcoin?

Possibly but the error bars on all of the numbers I'm using are also large, and the age of the numbers matters as well. I find numbers for Bitcoin -- in the same window -- of 30-90 megatons of CO2, for Ethereum of 15-50 megatons, and the figures for junk mail range from 6 to 60 megatons.

The error bars all overlap, so the closest I can do with the level of work I'm willing to put in is that junk mail might be a little bit more CO2 than cryptocurrency (or twice as much as Bitcoin), or like 5% of cryptocurrency at the other extreme.

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#164

Post by drusepth »

jonathansampson wrote: post #139
drusepth wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the best vibe from a company whose livelihood is dependent on convincing more and more people to trust them with more and more data.

Brave doesn't ask you to trust it with more and more data; we explicitly do not want any of your data. This issue did not impact user data or privacy in any way either.

There are many facets to the Brave browser and the server-side Brave services it uses that would allow the Brave company to covertly collect all kinds of data from its users; Brave simply asks users to just trust that they don't want or aren't collecting that data.

If one wouldn't trust a particular company with their data, I don't see why one would be any more likely to trust a company simply claiming they're not collecting said data.

I do appreciate the few features designed to make it technically impossible for Brave to collect some/most of that feature's user data from, though.

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#165

Post by jonathansampson »

drusepth wrote: post #164
jonathansampson wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave doesn't ask you to trust it with more and more data; we explicitly do not want any of your data. This issue did not impact user data or privacy in any way either.

There are many facets to the Brave browser and the server-side Brave services it uses that would allow the Brave company to covertly collect all kinds of data from its users; Brave simply asks users to just trust that they don't want or aren't collecting that data. If one wouldn't trust a particular company with their data, I don't see why one would be any more likely to trust a company simply claiming they're not co…

Data-harvesting would be quite difficult to hide given our source code is open to the public (i.e. https://code.brave.com and https://github.com/brave), and that we encourage web-proxy evaluation of network activity (a la https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/). In fact, reputable researchers in the privacy space have reviewed Brave, finding it to be the "most private" browser, in a class of its own: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf. But does not collect user data--we don't want your data.

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#166

Post by morganvachon »

jonathansampson wrote: post #161
morganvachon wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the attempt to explain your company's bad behavior, but I'm not convinced. And to be fair, you're not alone in making mistakes in the arena of privacy and security; all the major browsers have privacy-averse settings and "anti-features". The difference with your company is that you falsely advertise yourself as the one true private browser, while simultaneously profiting from your users' personal data. I…

You've mischaracterized features of Brave. Our code is open-source, it's not difficult to literally "go to the source," ( https://code.brave.com and https://github.com/brave ) and test the claims of others. You claim that Brave profits off of user data--show me where that is the case. Brave does not collect any user data; we were found to be the "most private" popular browser by reputable researchers in this regard:…

This is disingenuous at best. The browser itself is open source but show me the source for your data collection servers and crypto scheme servers. What's that? It's not open source? Imagine that!

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#167

Post by KingOfCoders »

jonathansampson wrote: post #145
KingOfCoders wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't they do their job without that information? You can send a letter to an address without the USPS a.) Having the address in their database b.) Knowing who is living there So Brave, the privacy company, is using a service that collects data about people.

Brave never has access to your information. We didn't use "a service that collects data about people," we used the EDDM offering of the United States Postal Service, which has legitimate claim to names and addresses. This service is attractive in part because it exposes no data to Brave in the process.

"We don't use a service that collects data about people, we use a service (USPS) which collects data (names, addresses) about people".

Glad I switched back to Firefox quite some time ago, a company which thinks paying others to collect data about you is fine as long as they "don't have access".

If you pay Google for ads, you also don't have access to their data. Still they collect it, you pay them for using the data they've collected.

Google, USPS? I'm not a socialist, so I don't care if a state owned corporation or a privately owned one is paid to collect the data.

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#168

Post by jonathansampson »

morganvachon wrote: post #166
jonathansampson wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've mischaracterized features of Brave. Our code is open-source, it's not difficult to literally "go to the source," ( https://code.brave.com and https://github.com/brave ) and test the claims of others. You claim that Brave profits off of user data--show me where that is the case. Brave does not collect any user data; we were found to be the "most private" popular browser by reputable researchers in this regard:…

This is disingenuous at best. The browser itself is open source but show me the source for your data collection servers and crypto scheme servers. What's that? It's not open source? Imagine that!

If any data is being collected and stored on servers, it would first need to be transferred off the installed client (the instance of Brave running on the user's device). Network analysis would capture this (as it does with Google, Bing, Firefox, and other browsers). But you don't see this with Brave, because it does not take place. Again, please consider the review of a reputable source: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#169

Post by jonathansampson »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #167
jonathansampson wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave never has access to your information. We didn't use "a service that collects data about people," we used the EDDM offering of the United States Postal Service, which has legitimate claim to names and addresses. This service is attractive in part because it exposes no data to Brave in the process.

"We don't use a service that collects data about people, we use a service (USPS) which collects data (names, addresses) about people". Glad I switched back to Firefox quite some time ago, a company which thinks paying others to collect data about you is fine as long as they "don't have access". If you pay Google for ads, you also don't have access to their data. Still they collect it, you pay them for using the data…

The United States Postal Service handles mail for the United States. Them having my name and address is quite a bit different than Google having the same data (in addition to the mountains of other data-types Google tends to harvest).

Switching back to Firefox means your keystrokes are literally handed off to Google in real-time. Please take some time to review the privacy practices of your preferred browser: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf

Re: Brave’s use of direct mailers

#170

Post by KingOfCoders »

jonathansampson wrote: post #169
KingOfCoders wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We don't use a service that collects data about people, we use a service (USPS) which collects data (names, addresses) about people". Glad I switched back to Firefox quite some time ago, a company which thinks paying others to collect data about you is fine as long as they "don't have access". If you pay Google for ads, you also don't have access to their data. Still they collect it, you pay them for using the data…

The United States Postal Service handles mail for the United States. Them having my name and address is quite a bit different than Google having the same data (in addition to the mountains of other data-types Google tends to harvest). Switching back to Firefox means your keystrokes are literally handed off to Google in real-time. Please take some time to review the privacy practices of your preferred browser: https:/…

"Them having my name and address is quite a bit different than Google having the same data"

As stated above, they don't need that data. Instead of "me" think of your customers.

"Switching back to Firefox means your keystrokes are literally handed off to Google in real-time."

This is not about me, but about Brave.

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