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Teach your kids poker, not chess

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Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true in the slightest. Poker is far, far more mathematical than chess. The idea that poker pros are only going off "reads" is completely ludicrous. They have a set game-theory-optimal style of playing, and then use an opponents flaws/"tells" to deviate from the GTO style to exploit those tells. An example of a flaw could be if the opponent is playing shitty hole cards. If the opponent has played in every…

The fancy deep learning poker bots that beat pros don’t even consider past opponent behavior.

If you're talking about Libratus (the CMU AI that beat poker pros in heads up no limit), then that's not true I believe.

During the competition, Libratus used 4 million core hours on the Bridges supercomputer for analyzing it's prior gameplay and changing strategy.

> During the tournament, Libratus was competing against the players during the days. Overnight it was perfecting its strategy on its own by analysing the prior gameplay and results of the day, particularly its losses. Therefore, it was able to continuously straighten out the imperfections that the human team had discovered in their extensive analysis, resulting in a permanent arms race between the humans and Libratus.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libratus

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#162
post #95

Nah, teach your kids chess, so that they can exercise their deductive/calculating muscles during that golden phase of childhood in which our brains are malleable enough to easily learn new languages: realize that artificial languages (i.e. deductive systems) are all functionally equivalent, and use chess as just another avenue into building deductive fluency; use multiple such avenues (e.g. music, Euclid). Call this…

> If you choose poker instead, you'll just breed a gambler.

Huh? Chess is fun, but deals in perfect information at all times. Poker teaches a person how to make decisions with imperfect information, which is how most life decisions will be made.

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#163
Teach your kids things you enjoy teaching them and they enjoy doing with you. Raising kids is not an optimisation problem.

At a kid level, both chess and poker will basically be the same anyway. It’s about fighting frustration and taking the time to think about what you are doing and a lot of memorisation. It’s going to be probability tables for poker and a tone of tactic puzzles for chess.

At this point and to play the optimisation game too, if you want to give your kids a way to work on their memorisation and dedication, you would probably be better served by having them learn to play an instrument. It’s also a creative outlet and is socially useful.

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strategy you suggest seems too simplistic and predictable to even trick a beginner to be honest

You’d be surprised how boring it gets at a poker table when you don’t get good cards for a hour. Folks get bored and play suboptimally. Part of what poker teaches is patience.

Yep, boredom is why I quit playing poker in casinos. I'm usually at a casino with friends to have a good time, but winning poker requires folding the large majority of hands [1], and it's just not fun. Craps with friends on the other hand, but I digress...

Also, very different than small poker games with friends where the point is hanging out and 'gambling' a bit.

[1] Tournament style is different from an open ended game.

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#165
I initially thought the author was being metaphorical. Teaching poker to a kid is a very risky proposition. If they have any propensity for addiction, the dopamine rush of gambling may take hold of their thought patterns before they have the wisdom and mental maturity to counteract such urges.

Teaching kids the probabilistic nature of life? Sure, if there is a way to teach a kid such things in a meaningful way. But I definitely veto teaching a child poker.

OTOH, chess is great. I didn't study any chess until my 20's. I've never had a problem with the sort of intelligence that is exercised in the school system, but chess exercised my brain in a novel way that might only be experienced in academia via pure math or theoretical physics. The visualization of moves, even a few moves in advance, can initially be surprisingly challenging, especially if there are many seemingly legitimate options. For those who have not seriously exercised this mental muscle before, I suspect it this kind of thinking will feel quite difficult.

After getting to the point where I could solve moderately difficult to difficult chess puzzles -- let's say approaching "master" level if you're familiar with the title hierarchy in chess -- the foresight required for programming, especially the kind that is done in most jobs nowadays, "felt" much easier. This is because getting to that level not only required the ability to visualize N steps in advance, but it also forces one to develop a very strong awareness of mental blind spots, which can be very humbling, and is an highly useful skill to have in this profession.

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#167
post #94

How about we play competitive Pokemon instead? Its got all the reads, bluffs, random chance, meta-gaming, math and strategy, and none of the gambling. ------ Don't get me wrong. Poker is a great game. But if we're talking about "reading" the opponent, relatively simple decisions that have deep mathematical backgrounds... a large variety of "simultaneous choice" video games (Pokemon, being a turnbased game with 60% to…

Pricing risk is something I assume Pokémon doesn’t have. But I’m not going to encourage my kids to play poker. I will teach them the game if they want. But without the risk of actual material loss, the game loses a lot. Money is highly emotional. It’s gain or loss, the emotions that triggers, manipulating those emotions in others, predicting their behaviour based on their state, and even simulating “tilt” and present…

> And I’m not going to allow children to gamble with money.

Kids are likely to gamble either way, best to teach them how to handle the loss and emotions.

When I was kid a lot of us would gamble our lunch money (75 cents) playing quarters with each other. Some days I had to skip lunch, some days I got an extra milk, and some I was caught and given detention. A lot of lessons in those outcomes heh.

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#169
post #95

Nah, teach your kids chess, so that they can exercise their deductive/calculating muscles during that golden phase of childhood in which our brains are malleable enough to easily learn new languages: realize that artificial languages (i.e. deductive systems) are all functionally equivalent, and use chess as just another avenue into building deductive fluency; use multiple such avenues (e.g. music, Euclid). Call this…

You make a lot of unsupported statements in this post.

Re: Teach your kids poker, not chess

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very large part of being a good poker player means that you can control your emotions and look at things objectively in: - tricky situations - long losing streaks when the expected value (EV) of your actions is positive in the long run, but the short term outcome is negative. Sounds like a skill that could be useful in other areas too. Controlling tilt is such a big part of the game that there are books written on…

> But does Billy have gambling problems right now because he played poker with fake chips with his grandma for fun when he was 6? Teaching a kids a gambling game in depth seems like it would increase their chance of getting interested in gambling unless you do this in an abusive way to gave them hate card games. Just teaching the rules of poker doesn't teach them any of the lessons from the article.

The article says that the argument for teaching poker is not because of memorising the rules, but understanding the concept of risk and making decisions on incomplete information. There's a lot more to chess than the rules also.

Intentions in this situation matter. If you (the parent) want to teach someone to play a game (your children), then why exactly would your intention be to sabotage them to win some fake chips?

I do understand the concern that exposing gambling to kids does not sound like one of the best ideas out there. And i don't think that variance is a topic that will be easily understood by six year olds. But poker is in the gray zone between gambling / not gambling. Meaning that 95% of people who play will lose money. The same percentages can be seen in stock trading. So the question remains, why can some people win in the long, while most lose? (95% is a guesstimate, might be higher)

> Teaching a kids a gambling game in depth seems like it would increase their chance of getting interested in gambling

I'm assuming the same percentage of people with deeper interest in how things work will say the same thing about chess. Or any other game.

Intentions do matter. Explain the problems of gambling in terms of expected value to your kids, and you will increase the chance that they will understand why the vast majority of gambling is not good.

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