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Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

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Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#161

Post by sidewndr46 »

cdiddy2 wrote: post #113
iamhamm wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fire isn’t the hazard we need to be concerned about for Lithium-ion, it’s the destructive mining and the subsequent hazmat disposal that should be worrying everyone. The lithium mining companies are filing claims all over my county and the proposed large scale excavation of extremely sensitive desert dry lake habitats is just disgusting. I’m no fan of oil, but at least there you drill a hole and not remove a few cubi…

The issue I have with this is that if we aren't allowed to mine in the desert where there is one sensitive shrub, like Thacker Pass, then how are we ever supposed to mine anything ever again. It seems like the perfect place to mine with minimal destruction. The other option is we never mine anything ever again and let countries with less environmental protections do the dirty work which is net worse for the environme…

For the most part here in the US, you don't. You outsource it to countries that either have no environmental regulation or look the either way so long as bribes are paid.

It's cheaper and technically "clean" since you aren't actually doing any damage or pollution directly.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#162

Post by sidewndr46 »

kube-system wrote: post #124
palijer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought they should only need to be safer than gas powered products, not a new standard. Let's directly compare the impact of battery incidents from EVs to the impact of widespread usage of internal combustion engines through the lens of public health policy. The damage that is being done by widespread ICE vehicle usage is very well documented and a problem we need to solve. You can't simply equate the indiv…

It’s not useful to directly compare the two, because they have very different safety concerns. Just as one example: many gasoline products have zero shipping danger because they’re shipped without gasoline in them. Furthermore, there is no dilemma between Li-Ion safety regulations and use of fossil fuels. We can use Li-Ions and require them to meet some safety regs.

I hadn't thought about that, but many engines are often shipped completely dry. No coolant, no oil, no gasoline. A ship sinks, worst case is some cast metal sitting on the bottom of the ocean.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#163

Post by sidewndr46 »

hollander wrote: post #148
jbay808 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for serviceable batteries, but I don't see how it solves the shipping safety issue. So you ship the EVs without batteries, and then... you ship the batteries?

You can stack the batteries in one place, in small compartments. If one compartment catches fire, it's easier to contain than in a big compartment with cars that take up much more space. It could even mean that you ditch the compartment in the ocean, to prevent a bigger problem. But compartments can be designed to be cooled with salt seawater without damaging the ship.

A battery is a heat source which requires no fuel to function. If you put an EV battery inside a sealed compartment, you just made a very large pipe bomb.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#164

Post by Tagbert »

analog31 wrote: post #149
elihu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems is that lithium ion batteries can't be discharged fully without destroying them. Effectively, the batteries are a very large energy source that can never be fully turned off. Another problem is that (if I understand correctly) lithium ion battery fires tend to produce their own oxygen. Another problem is that a manufacturing defect in one cell could cause the whole pack to catch on fire. According…

Indeed, and pouring an arbitrary amount of water into a fully laden ship already has another technical name: Sinking.

Bilge pumps

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#165

Post by codedokode »

jbay808 wrote: post #44
throw93232 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs are safe if you remove batteries. If batteries can not be easily removed and serviced, it is unsafe design. We need basic regulations around safety here.

I'm all for serviceable batteries, but I don't see how it solves the shipping safety issue. So you ship the EVs without batteries, and then... you ship the batteries?

What if you put batteries into a container filled with sand? They probably would be safe there.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#166

Post by sokoloff »

samatman wrote: post #157
wikidani wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>legal to hook a 2 stroke up to a bike It's rather common where I live, not weird at all. Those are only loud when unmodified and every kit comes with a standard gas tank, perhaps banning them altoghether isn't an answer?

It's impossible to carry on a normal conversation next to a running two stroke regardless of muffling. I support a complete ban on those engines in city and most suburban limits, electric versions of the various tools which run on them are adequate and much, much quieter. This is fully justifiable not on noise alone, which can be mitigated, but the unacceptable level of hazardous particles released by incomplete oil…

I have not yet seen an electric leaf blower with equivalent specs as a top of the line 2-stroke. I think the minute that happens and 80% charging is under 2 hours, the industry will flip automatically.

The electric leaf blowers I’ve seen (I bought 2, returned one, put the second on “sweeping dust and leaves off concrete” duty, and tried two of my fan-of-electric-anything friend’s battery blowers) are indeed quieter, mostly by virtue of moving less air.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#167

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

fy20 wrote: post #114
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a couple videos on YouTube of vehicles on a carrier ship where the vehicles are bash around a fiar bit beyond what might happen in a passenger safety impact test. This one shows the result of a ship passing nearby a Category 3 hurricane and teh aftermath https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7EqGzO_qsc

I'm surprised they aren't strapped down like on a tow truck. That would prevent the majority of issues.

They are on this autoliner

https://youtu.be/ahdhk1rZZrU

Doesn't look to be an industry wide thing though.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#168

Post by sokoloff »

Schroedingersat wrote: post #110
moffkalast wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they say, but the main gripe of switching to EVs has always been their too small range. Your average Li-ion 21700 cell has a capacity of 4-5Ah, whereas one with an LFP chemistry only gets 2-3Ah. That's almost a 50 % reduction in spatial density, not to mention their abysmal C rating. Perhaps they would fit for PHEV usage, but for pure EVs they would be rather shite imo.

The answer is to regulate battery standards and internal input jacks. The overwhelming majority of people don't need more than 50 miles range the overwhelming majority of the time. The problem would be solved if you could just put your house battery or a rented one in the boot for that rare long trip. Additionally make all vehicles on the road slower, smaller, and lighter so you can safely drive something that more c…

Speaking as someone with 7.5 years daily driving a Nissan LEAF, it is rare that I drive more than 50 miles in a day, but driving 50 miles requires a car with more than 50 miles of range. Right now, I’d take a 50 mile drive in my car (without swapping to my spouse’s ICE car), but I’m not sure I’d do the same for a 60 and definitely not a 70 mile drive. Fully charged, my car guesses it has around 75 miles of range, but that quickly is proven wrong in operation and I can only count on 55 or so. This from a car with a published range of 84 miles on a new battery.

A non-hybrid with an electric range of 50 miles when new would likely be a market flop. I love my LEAF, but I’d not buy a car with that little range again.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#169

Post by Fomite »

wongarsu wrote: post #83
elihu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems is that lithium ion batteries can't be discharged fully without destroying them. Effectively, the batteries are a very large energy source that can never be fully turned off. Another problem is that (if I understand correctly) lithium ion battery fires tend to produce their own oxygen. Another problem is that a manufacturing defect in one cell could cause the whole pack to catch on fire. According…

> Putting out an EV battery fire basically entails dumping enormous amounts of water on it That's a problem fire departments are still trying to adapt to, many resorting to putting out the fire conventionally, then submerging the car in a water-filled container. But I'm unclear on how that makes the risk profile worse for ships? The initial fire should be easier to contain with EVs than with gasoline cars because EV…

"water for cooling affected vehicles for a couple hours is plentiful. It's a ship after all."

Flooding a ship's hold with water is generally regarded as a bad thing.

Re: Is It Safe to Ship Thousands of Electric Cars on Big Ships?

#170

Post by otterley »

sokoloff wrote: post #166
samatman wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to carry on a normal conversation next to a running two stroke regardless of muffling. I support a complete ban on those engines in city and most suburban limits, electric versions of the various tools which run on them are adequate and much, much quieter. This is fully justifiable not on noise alone, which can be mitigated, but the unacceptable level of hazardous particles released by incomplete oil…

I have not yet seen an electric leaf blower with equivalent specs as a top of the line 2-stroke. I think the minute that happens and 80% charging is under 2 hours, the industry will flip automatically. The electric leaf blowers I’ve seen (I bought 2, returned one, put the second on “sweeping dust and leaves off concrete” duty, and tried two of my fan-of-electric-anything friend’s battery blowers) are indeed quieter,…

The question isn’t whether they’re comparable in specs. The question is whether the electric version is good enough. (I’ve seen some electric models that can move 650 CFM, which is quite impressive.)
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