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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#161

Post by WalterSear »

manmal wrote: post #126
rpmisms wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand exactly what you're talking about. I genuinely can't listen to ideological podcasters who are shitty people. I don't mean ideologies I disagree with, I mean people with no compassion who try to tell you how to live. Good example: Tim Pool. He's ideologically pretty close to me, but I can't stand him as a person. No thanks.

How is Tim Ferriss ideological or a shitty person? I think he’s trying real hard and doesn’t stomp on people. His success is also quite hard earned IMO.

The 4 hour work week presents an ideology of success by being a shitty person.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#162

Post by zozbot234 »

regpertom wrote: post #159
zozbot234 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhist vipassana meditation is based on deconstructing the ego altogether as well as all desires, and recognizing the illusion behind them. So if people are being egocentric, they probably have not progressed very far in their spiritual path.

I’ve heard it said to be careful. That one may find upon deconstructing their ego, and finding that it’s all an illusion, that they stare into the face of god, and that god is them staring back at them. That they are it. That they are the divine. How intoxicating. This person and the drug addict who thinks they’re Jesus are on the same wave length. The drug being a dangerous shortcut. So have they not progressed very…

The point ought to be that there's nothing overly special about "being the divine" - after all, God is everywhere. In eastern tradition, this would be called "having the Buddha-nature", or the underlying potential for spiritual enlightenment. It doesn't even mean that you have attained more power over the material world (the sort of power you might naïvely ascribe to a "God"), albeit practitioners of spiritual/ascetic magick would say that there's a very real path to explore in that whole expectation.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#163

Post by colordrops »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #128
colordrops wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term is "spiritual bypass". You disconnect from emotions, pleasure and pain, etc, see the world as illusion, and no longer feel guilt for poor action.

I'm wondering though if that is really a necessary consequence of non-spiritual meditation practice. There is fine line between meditation and autogenic training style self-hypnosis internalizing convenient messages. So, if a practitioner starts to go down that route all bets are off. OTOH it is true that social norms become less relevant with meditation. For one because meditation makes you strong and social norms a…

No, it's not a necessary consequence, just a name for what can happen. It happens with spiritual practices too.

Your comments on the nature of this phenomenon are insightful.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#165

Post by drblast »

regpertom wrote: post #159
zozbot234 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhist vipassana meditation is based on deconstructing the ego altogether as well as all desires, and recognizing the illusion behind them. So if people are being egocentric, they probably have not progressed very far in their spiritual path.

I’ve heard it said to be careful. That one may find upon deconstructing their ego, and finding that it’s all an illusion, that they stare into the face of god, and that god is them staring back at them. That they are it. That they are the divine. How intoxicating. This person and the drug addict who thinks they’re Jesus are on the same wave length. The drug being a dangerous shortcut. So have they not progressed very…

Having had these experiences, the god I saw and became one with was a being with a childlike sense of wonder at the universe it had accidentally created.

More of a "whoops, woah cool" than a "let there be light"

Very much unlike of the Christian conception of God.

I'm not describing this well, because I can't describe it well. But I can't imagine anyone experiencing something similar would be a jerk about it. See the universe unfiltered though the mind's perception and it just...is. Timeless and meaningless.

Consciousness and ego create their own meaning.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#166

Post by hackernewds »

manmal wrote: post #64
ramraj07 wrote: post #51

Whenever someone talks about mindfulness or stoicism, the name that pops to my head is Tim Ferris. Like a less crappier Joe Rogan with an actual brain maybe? I still listen to some of his podcast episodes because he gets guests who I want to learn about. But oh my god the narcissism! I get it the podcast is about success and how to succeed, but for the love of god try to take your head out of your own ass for a minut…

Selfishness is not narcissism. Narcissism usually comes with selfishness, but you can't induce the other way round. It's interesting that you mention that Ferriss or his guests wouldn't talk about their acts of kindness, as that's exactly the kind of thing narcissists like to talk about (= virtue signalling).

What is the boundary line between selfishness and narcissism?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#167

Post by jackdawed »

nprateem wrote: post #115
jackdawed wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the third stage of enlightenment, if you have any questions about my day to day experience.

Is it worth it? Does it live up to the hype of bringing incredible peace and happiness?

It is like living in a video game with the FOV slider turned to max. It has made me very good at "deep work" and I have a much easier time managing day to day stress and emotions. However, it brought out immense periods of suffering (dark night) followed by immense peace in cycles. The biggest inconvenience to me is the sleep disruptions, which is why I'm taking a break from deeper insight practice, and just try to maintain it, the same way a power lifter might just go to the gym for health reasons without trying to set a new PR.

If you have any interest in accessing a higher state of consciousness (or more accurately a flatter state of consciousness), it's an interesting hobby to pursue, kinda like being good at mental math.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#168

Post by jackdawed »

davesque wrote: post #127
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

There's a balance to be struck with anything. On the one hand, teaching meditation outside of the context of religion might increase the likelihood of the purpose of the practice being misunderstood. On the other hand, any religious practice runs the risk of breeding a sense of self righteousness in the practitioner. With meditation and mindfulness, I've seen both. Also, I gotta say that language like "moral deficien…

Forgive me, English is not my first language so at times I struggle finding the right word for it.

The pali word is "sila", the closest translation is morals. To be deficient in sila is to be deficient in morals, was my thought process. One example is do no harm, or avoid lying. If all your daily life is filled with causing harm, and deceit, then it will be filled with chaos and end up making it harder for you to make progress in awakening or do good stuff. This is one interpretation of karma (cause and effect).

There's a whole other philosophical side to it that I think about, outside of the Buddhist context. That certain choices or circumstances in life end up reducing your moral agency in this world. People can be born under unsafe, and unkind environments, so sometimes it becomes harder to be generous and kind, as if there was less wiggle room in your ability to act as a moral agent. One of the things Buddhism tries to address is removing the layers of conditioning in your mind and concept of self, to give you more freedom.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#169

Post by [deleted] »

neltnerb wrote: post #22

True Story. I was newly moved to San Francisco and enrolled in a meditation course on literally loving-kindness (they were all mindfulness, this was a focused seminar). When I was on my way in someone was having a mental health emergency right outside the front door and looked to clearly need care. Not knowing who to call for this since I didn't live in the city, and definitely not wanting to call cops, I went in and…

[deleted]

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#170

Post by pmoriarty »

danuker wrote: post #112
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

> I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight. Wow! I haven't meditated before. That sounds like a lot of time. Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?

"Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?"

I'm not the OP, but after I practiced meditation intensely for a few months I found two huge benefits:

First: before I meditated I used to get annoyed and bored when I had to do chores like washing the dishes or standing in line. But after meditating for a while, when I had to do such a chore I'd just focus on my breath and I'd no longer feel bored or annoyed. In fact, such chores and waiting in line became almost pleasurable because they gave me an opportunity to meditate.

Second: when someone said something mean to me I would just focus on my breath and sort of catch myself about to get angry and saw that I had a choice whether to get angry or not. I didn't have to get drawn in to the hurricane of feelings as an unconscious reaction to the meanness directed at me. Instead I could just continue to focus on my breath and I wouldn't get angry at all.

Unfortunately, for some reason that I no longer remember, I fell off the wagon of meditating regularly and went back to my old easily bored, quick to anger self. I still try to meditate occasionally by focusing on my breath, but it doesn't help nearly as much as when I meditated regularly for hours at a time.

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