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Occupy George

occupygeorge.com

161–167 of 167 posts

Re: Occupy George

#161
post #148
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you make a killing off the stock market, someone else necessarily loses. Suppose I hold $100 of XYZ stock. Then the value jumps to $500. I've effectively made $400. Who has lost?

The fools who sold the stock to you initially instead of holding it. To be honest, I am growing tired of arguing against people who believe that the economy is a zero sum game, along with all the other fallacies. I can just grow wealthy on the back of betting against them, which is what I suspect others are doing.

> To be honest, I am growing tired of arguing against people who believe that the economy is a zero sum game, along with all the other fallacies. I can just grow wealthy on the back of betting against them, which is what I suspect others are doing.

Isn't that proving the exact opposite point?

"It's not zero-sum! To prove it, I will make money AT YOUR EXPENSE!"

Re: Occupy George

#162
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income inequality really took off in the 80s so it is more correlated with ... the trend of deficit-financed tax cuts for the wealthy This just doesn't make sense. The discussion is about inequality of income . Taxation doesn't change my taxable income. It takes away part of my income (and gives much of that slice to someone else). The tax cuts you're complaining about are assessed after the income level has already…

The tax cuts of the last 30 years have been accompanied by massive deregulation and cuts to social services. Society has taken a huge right-ward tilt, conservatives have gotten everything they wanted. But you guys can never get enough and are always claiming that we need more tax cuts, more deregulation and more cuts to social services. The deficits created by the tax cuts during Republican administrations are used t…

The tax cuts of the last 30 years have been accompanied by massive deregulation and cuts to social services. Society has taken a huge right-ward tilt, conservatives have gotten everything they wanted.

Sigh. We just got the biggest increase in entitlement programs in more than two generations. The government claims it's cutting spending, but actually it won't be any smaller, they've only decelerate slightly. In the meantime, the regulatory state is thriving. I challenge you to name an industry that one could safely enter without needing to learn myriad details of what the government demands of businesses in that industry. This is not an age of deregulation, and GWB was no friend of small government nor of the free market.

NOT A SINGLE BANKER WAS FIRED OR PROSECUTED, ... The government is in their back pocket, they do as they want.

The banking meltdown was due to the banking industry taking some unconscionable risks, but it was also due to the regulators themselves pushing the banking industry to take risks. Industry is also in the back pocket of the government, as business leaders vie for the advantages that government bequeaths. Yet how many politicians and bureaucrats have been held accountable for the debacle?

We are living in your vision of the world.

You have no idea how wrong you are. You seem to be drawing a mental picture of the political world that follows the narrative told by the main stream media, but that's so gross an oversimplification as to be useless. The political spectrum is not one of Liberals versus Conservatives. So when you assume that, because I'm arguing against your Liberal stance, I must be a Conservative, is just plain wrong.

There are many ways to look at the political world. Taking the simplistic view is not going to help you solve any problems, any more than you'll be able to debug your software if you don't understand how the machine, your compiler, the network protocols, etc., work.

First, you should understand that the vast majority of the people in politics and in the business world are not evil. They are just people like you and I, responding to the problems and incentives in front of them, trying to make a life for themselves and their families. The size and complexity of the system makes it less clear where the line between right and wrong is, and easy to fudge for any particular action. While the structure of the system today makes it all too compelling to make the wrong choice.

Your insistence that so many of your neighbors are evil -- when they know that they're not, and just doing their best -- is going to make anyone you disagree with defensive. That'll prevent you from changing any minds, and instead just widen the political chasm that we suffer from today. I beg you, take a step back from the incrimination, and try to understand what's going on as the collective work of many individuals, each responding to situations put in front of them.

Re: Occupy George

#163
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That dismissal is a bit oversimplistic. With increases in productivity, it is possible for everyone to have more; but almost all the gains have been concentrated toward the top. PG: > I can remember believing, as a child, that if a few rich people had all the money, it left less for everyone else. This is provably true. Just because PG believed it as a child doesn't mean he was incorrect then. It's true by stipulatio…

> If you make a killing off the stock market, someone else necessarily loses. Suppose I hold $100 of XYZ stock. Then the value jumps to $500. I've effectively made $400. Who has lost?

Whoever is holding it when the price inevitably falls. When the price is increasing, the money is redirected from any other investment seen as less preferable, and whoever is holding that loses money. The money has to come from somewhere.

In order to move the price up, you need new buyers. Eventually you run out of new people to interest in the stock, and the price tops out.

If someone buys it at the peak and holds it, at some point they will either sell it for a loss, or they will hold onto it "forever" which ties up that money for them and effectively makes it a total loss.

In addition, in order to drive the price up, people are choosing to commit money to that purpose and not others. Competitors' stocks will fall. Other types of investments won't be done.

Clearly, it's a game of hot potato where you don't want to be stuck holding the bag, so you play musical chairs and end up changing horses mid-stream.

Let's assume someone has a foreign banknote and doesn't know what it's worth (it's a one dollar bill). He sells it for 20 cents; the next person sells it for 40 cents; and so on. Whoever buys it at a dollar is making a lateral trade unless he finds a sucker.

Anyone who left money on the table is essentially profit-sharing with the next person. In order to make your profit, you had to GET the money from someone else who already had it.

When you sell your $400 stock, someone else buys it, with the express purpose of having an asset that appreciates fast enough to outpace inflation.

It's kind of like the rake in a poker game. If your buyer sells it a year later for the "same" $400, it's not breaking even, it's losing 3% or more. You could posit a theoretical stock that always went up but still was always a loss in terms of real value, because it didn't match the inflation rate.

Let's consider the case of a stock that keeps falling. It's a money-loser for one person after another, and instead of profit-sharing they are distributing loss between themselves, balancing out the profit that has already been taken out. If the freefall rate is too fast for the market reaction time, then someone ends up selling too low, and their loss pays for whoever buys it and sells it at the more stable price.

The issue that people like to muddle is the "pie fallacy" straw man. There ISN'T actually any argument about growing the pie. We all know it gets bigger. There is no dispute about that.

The issue that has popped up over and over again the last few years is that something like (I don't recall the exact nubmers) 80% of the productivity gains have gone to the top 1%, or top 10%.

http://www.google.com/search?q=wages+vs+productivity&tbm...

Your gain also depends on other people losing in another way. If everyone has their money in "safe" investments, there is no demand for your stock. So you need to convince people to put their money in riskier investments instead. And it's risky because most people lose money.

In fact, the whole ecosystem is built on Venture Capital, and most of the ventures fail. As everyone knows, the VCs get paid a fee even if the fund doesn't have a return.

And if it does have a return, there are still all the losses incurred by everyone who put their lives into their startups which ended up not working out, which is something like 9 out of 10 startups. Plus the investors' money which was lost, only made up for by someone else.

And then there is all the wealth NOT created because you can't hire the talent, since it is in a busy-loop at some giant company doing something less useful, like making Skinner boxes, waiting for stocks to vest. Or simply being paid for bodycount, so a competitor can't get them. And then the demotivation that occurs when people have tons of money and find a lot of ways to spend their time other than slaving away on hard problems.

People tend not to push themselves once they've reached a certain level of comfort. What incentive does the Mob Wars programmer have to become an expert developer, now that he's filthy rich from a simple web app?

Creating breakthrough technology depends on expertise, which depends on experience. What might PG, RTM, and TLB have created with their combined abilities in programming?

ViaWeb had some fundamentally great ideas:

> We had a structure editor for manipulating these templates, a lot like the structure editor they had in Interlisp. Instead of typing free-form text, you cut and pasted bits of code together. This meant that it was impossible to get syntax errors. It also meant that we didn't have to display the parentheses in the underlying s-expressions: we could show structure by indentation. By this means we made the language look a lot less threatening.

>We also designed Rtml so that there could be no errors at runtime: every Rtml program yielded some kind of Web page, and you could debug it by hacking it until it produced the page you meant it to.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/bbnexcerpts.txt

Re: Occupy George

#164
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tax cuts of the last 30 years have been accompanied by massive deregulation and cuts to social services. Society has taken a huge right-ward tilt, conservatives have gotten everything they wanted. But you guys can never get enough and are always claiming that we need more tax cuts, more deregulation and more cuts to social services. The deficits created by the tax cuts during Republican administrations are used t…

The tax cuts of the last 30 years have been accompanied by massive deregulation and cuts to social services. Society has taken a huge right-ward tilt, conservatives have gotten everything they wanted. Sigh. We just got the biggest increase in entitlement programs in more than two generations. The government claims it's cutting spending, but actually it won't be any smaller, they've only decelerate slightly. In the me…

Do you ever stop and wonder why it is that your ideology so closely aligns exactly with everything that the big corps and banks want? You want deregulation just like the big polluters do, you want lower taxes just like the richest want, you want to remove any policing of business activities, guess who doesn't want business activities to be policed? The fantasy that the banking meltdown was caused by Fannie or some laws passed 30 years ago don't even pass the smell test. For some reason you can't imagine that it had anything to do with the banking deregulation passed in 2000. Somehow anything that might benefit the lower and middle class is a threat but we must keep the most powerful on the dole.

By the way you are distancing yourself from "conservatives" I'm guessing you are one of the self-proclaimed libertarians. But as far as the practical economical results it's the same crap, policies that end up making the powerful even more powerful than they are now.

I'm not assuming that you are evil, and I don't have some simplistic view of the world that you are attributing to me. But there are people that are taking advantage of the rest of us and we should be fighting it. We all live in a world flooded by propaganda coming at us from all sides so I always try to give people some leeway when arguing politics, and I try to stay informed on opinions opposed to mine. It is hard to break free from pre-concieved notions.

The liberal vs conservative (or libertarian) debate on economics has been about whether the bigger villain are big corps or big government. But I think what the new realization dawning on millions of people, especially those that thought Obama would fight against the plutocrats, is that they are both part of the same corrupt and broken system. You want to break apart big government, fine, but why don't you also want to break up the big banks and other monopolies?

Re: Occupy George

#165
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) No. I also don't consider said bailouts the root cause of anything except one more instance of wasteful spending. 2) "Too busy fighting over local minima/maxima to ever escape them and make core changes, but as a result at least mostly harmless except as a drag force on productivity." We could argue all day about core changes that might fix the system, but we'll never agree on precisely which core changes to make,…

I'll throw two out there - 1. Campaign finance reform. Debate the details, but you can't debate that there should be some. 2. Vastly greater oversight/transparency, if not an outright ban of the current lobbying system.

Both of your answers ask for more government control. Consider the government is a huge concentration of power, so many will want to corrupt it. Our goal should be to reduce the power of government, thereby reducing corruption.

Re: Occupy George

#166
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because democracy and equality is fundamentally superior to feudalism, therefore any system that is on an unstoppable slide toward feudalism is fundamentally broken.

How is the system in an unstoppable slide towards feudalism? Is this the same feudalism I studied in European History, with the land-holders and vassals and all? If not, why are you using that word?

More precisely it is "corporate feudalism" or "neofeudalism"

Re: Occupy George

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, curiously, George Soros and #Occupy are both leftists

I don't mind getting down voted, but you could at least leave a comment on why.

I didn't vote you down, but I'd say you were missing the point. You think OWS is exclusively left? Did every ordinary right-leaning American suddenly decide massive government spending is OK so long as it's to bail big corporations out of their own f'ups?
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