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Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

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Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#161

Post by huitzitziltzin »

ekanes wrote: post #109
huitzitziltzin wrote: post #104

Very favorable comments all around from the very online crowd who comments here. I’m much more skeptical. I have no doubt this will work well for some students, but as someone who taught online for the better part of two years I can say with certainty that the experience is very different and (for the wide majority of students) worse than being in person. My colleagues and I can attest to both general learning loss (…

> My colleagues and I can attest to both general learning loss (ie., forgetting specific subject matter information) and a loss of broader “studying skills” (ie., coming to class and doing homework) after the pandemic. No disagreement that grades are lower, but is it possible we are in some ways measuring the wrong things? In a modern age, “remembering information” or “doing homework” don’t seem so applicable to the…

> but is it possible we are in some ways measuring the wrong things?

No disagreement, but we were measuring the same things pre- and post-pandemic. The negative effect on those measured outcomes is very real.

It is possible that if we were measuring the "right things" (whatever those are) we might see no effect. A priori that's a little implausible IMO but I'm willing to entertain the argument!

> In a modern age, “remembering information” or “doing homework” don’t seem so applicable to the future.

Strong disagree on "remembering information is not applicable to the future." I partially concede on "doing homework", but honestly there is no other way to make the students attempt to apply the material they learn, and no way for them to understand what they don't understand except by attempting to apply it!

Homework might suck, but there is a good reason everyone uses it!

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#162

Post by xyzzy21 »

huitzitziltzin wrote: post #153
bnralt wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, in-person educators often do a rather poor job with online education. There's often a lot of effort to emulate in-person learning, instead of an acceptance that online education is its own thing. They also often approach online education with a bias against it, which I doubt helps things. In-person educators trying to do online learning, getting poor results, and then saying it's the fault of online…

I don't entirely disagree, but I partially disagree. Personally I was desperate in March 2020 (as were my colleagues) for any tips about what would work online. I didn't want my classes to suck, nor did my colleagues. There was very little information available at the beginning about what worked. But what's worse (and what makes me disagree with your comment) is that even after a year of being online it still wasn't…

Could it be that since humans are social primates, online simply can never work as well as face-to-face.

I work in sales and direct face-to-face sales ALWAYS has better close rates, happier customers, etc. than indirect sales through phone or internet.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#163

Post by itronitron »

ekanes wrote: post #109
huitzitziltzin wrote: post #104

Very favorable comments all around from the very online crowd who comments here. I’m much more skeptical. I have no doubt this will work well for some students, but as someone who taught online for the better part of two years I can say with certainty that the experience is very different and (for the wide majority of students) worse than being in person. My colleagues and I can attest to both general learning loss (…

> My colleagues and I can attest to both general learning loss (ie., forgetting specific subject matter information) and a loss of broader “studying skills” (ie., coming to class and doing homework) after the pandemic. No disagreement that grades are lower, but is it possible we are in some ways measuring the wrong things? In a modern age, “remembering information” or “doing homework” don’t seem so applicable to the…

It would be nice to know whether, and at what grade levels, standardized test scores have been affected as I am inclined to believe that the standardized test scores (i.e. SAT) have remained stable.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#164

Post by PretzelPirate »

MrBlueIncognito wrote: post #127
PretzelPirate wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re researchers able to separate the negative effects on children of online learning from the negative effects from other causes such as global panic and uncertainty, the inability to see friends, etc…?

> the inability to see friends At least that last factor is directly correlated with online learning. Also I know from experience that most students in online classes aren’t even actively listening. A good chunk of them end up on YouTube or Instagram.

> At least that last factor is directly correlated with online learning.

Unless they live in rural settings, it’s likely a very loose correlation.

When I was a kid, I grew up in a neighborhood in a walkable town and my friends and I saw each other everyday, though we went to different schools or were in different grades at the same school.

I later moved to a rural area for high school and only saw people at school due to how far away we all lived from each other.

In the first situation, I suspect online learning would have been great for me since I could do it at home and I’d still have plenty of social interaction without the downside of hauling books between classes, sitting in an uncomfortable classroom environment, and largely not paying attention since there wasn’t any way for the teacher to track my participation in a large class.

I’m not sure how physical education would have worked at that time, but maybe fitness trackers help with that nowadays.

I do suspect that online learning isn’t great for lower income households since they may not have dedicate space set up for learning, and it would be a shame to create yet another class difference in education.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#165

Post by leereeves »

xyzzy21 wrote: post #162
huitzitziltzin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't entirely disagree, but I partially disagree. Personally I was desperate in March 2020 (as were my colleagues) for any tips about what would work online. I didn't want my classes to suck, nor did my colleagues. There was very little information available at the beginning about what worked. But what's worse (and what makes me disagree with your comment) is that even after a year of being online it still wasn't…

Could it be that since humans are social primates, online simply can never work as well as face-to-face. I work in sales and direct face-to-face sales ALWAYS has better close rates, happier customers, etc. than indirect sales through phone or internet.

As a customer, I much prefer online shopping in no small part because I don't want to deal with salespeople.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#166

Post by photochemsyn »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #160
photochemsyn wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a culture/society becomes intensely class-stratified and divides into an aristocratic (British posh) and serf (British prole) structure, this kind of educational system (one tier for the aristocrats, another for the serfs) is very likely to arise. It may not be 'by design' as much as something that develops over time and becomes an unconscious social norm. The driving force behind this is that the well-paid jobs…

So it's not by design. I like your response though, good jumping off point.

The notion of a conspiratorial cabal of aristocrats plotting together to sabotage working class education in the name of preserving their exclusive privileges makes for good cinematic content, but I'd guess simple indifference and the desire to pay less taxes is more of the issue.

I think it's disastrous to the long-term success of any nation, however. If America continues to slide towards such a system, it will fall behind China in technological development. Britain seems to have suffered from this issue: even though Britain was an early leader in computer technology (Turing, Colossus, etc.) they never had a Silicon Valley moment.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#167

Post by tkgally »

huitzitziltzin wrote: post #156
tkgally wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One minority data point here. I teach at a university in Japan. I have been teaching my classes exclusively online—live using Zoom—for more than two years, and overall the experience has been better than with the in-person classes I taught for many years before. The class discussions have been meatier and more focused than in person, and the students have been turning in better papers. I recognize that the results wo…

Please tell me your secret. Is there anything you do differently, relative to in person? Or do you just end up with a selected sample of super motivated students? This in particular: > The class discussions have been meatier... is a literal miracle. I think it might be this: > I am fortunate to teach small classes of motivated students with good study skills. I teach an honors and a regular section of one of my class…

> Is there anything you do differently, relative to in person?

I call on students more systematically rather than just waiting for volunteers to raise their hand. When I taught in-person, it was usually the same few students who spoke up a lot, while others never said anything. Now everyone contributes, making for an overall better discussion.

With my larger online classes, I will sometimes throw out a discussion question and give the students five or ten minutes to write up their responses, which they submit through a Google Form. I then display those responses on screen and respond to them. Having the time to write up their responses, and knowing that their responses might be shared with the entire class, seems to make students respond more thoughtfully than if they were just making an ephemeral spoken comment.

I sometimes ask all students to submit questions to me through an online form, too. In in-person classes, many students seem embarrassed to ask questions in front of their peers. That doesn’t apply to online forms. (When I display the students’ questions on the screen, I don’t show the students’ names.)

Some of these ideas come from workshops I attended years ago on “active learning” and could be implemented in the classroom as well. But I began using them only after I started teaching online.

> If you are teaching grad students that is also not going to be representative of the overall population. Those guys are definitely in the right tail of motivation.

You’re absolutely correct.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#168

Post by leereeves »

huitzitziltzin wrote: post #153
bnralt wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, in-person educators often do a rather poor job with online education. There's often a lot of effort to emulate in-person learning, instead of an acceptance that online education is its own thing. They also often approach online education with a bias against it, which I doubt helps things. In-person educators trying to do online learning, getting poor results, and then saying it's the fault of online…

I don't entirely disagree, but I partially disagree. Personally I was desperate in March 2020 (as were my colleagues) for any tips about what would work online. I didn't want my classes to suck, nor did my colleagues. There was very little information available at the beginning about what worked. But what's worse (and what makes me disagree with your comment) is that even after a year of being online it still wasn't…

> But what's worse (and what makes me disagree with your comment) is that even after a year of being online it still wasn't clear how to make it not suck!

Were these Zoom classes? I can't think of a single synchronous (like Zoom) class that didn't suck.

What I liked as a student was prerecorded lectures that could be replayed at high speed (or even skipped) on my own schedule. Personally I much prefer these over live lectures.

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#169

Post by padobson »

photochemsyn wrote: post #147
bnralt wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, in-person educators often do a rather poor job with online education. There's often a lot of effort to emulate in-person learning, instead of an acceptance that online education is its own thing. They also often approach online education with a bias against it, which I doubt helps things. In-person educators trying to do online learning, getting poor results, and then saying it's the fault of online…

In both online and inperson, a major choke point occurs when students get stuck on a problem and have nowhere to go to get help, or when students don't get useful feedback after submitting their work. This is directly related to the teacher-student ratio, regardless of whether it's online or not. I imagine a huge factor is also parental involvement, when it comes to encouraging students to set aside several hours eac…

This is directly related to the teacher-student ratio, regardless of whether it's online or not.

One of Malcolm Gladwell's books made a convincing argument that reducing class size quickly runs into the issue of diminishing returns. A cursory Googling suggests there's plenty of research to back it up[0][1]

The effectiveness of in-person learning may have more to do with social interaction and peer motivation. A teacher with about 20 students who is able to create a general excitement for learning in the class seems to be the most effective. A classroom where the "spirit" of learning is alive is ideal for a lot of kids.

[0]https://edcentral.uk/reading-list/431-what-we-have-learned-a... [1]http://hanushek.stanford.edu/publications/evidence-class-siz...

Re: Khan Academy launches Khan World School online high school

#170

Post by mattferderer »

umangrathi wrote: post #35

I am looking forward to the day, when quality formal education is available online to all which you may complete at your own pace instead of going with a strict semester and class system. Also, along with offline schools for supporting social learning and helping classes which require offline components like labs, in person support classes, interest based study groups etc.

It probably doesn't meet your definition, but if you were a K-12 student you could:

* Homeschool

* Use your local school's curriculum or a public one like Common Core or another one of your choosing

* Use one of many amazing online sources, like Khan. The great thing is if you struggle, you can always find an alternative teacher. I've found sometimes I need multiple different explanations over the course of weeks to understand a topic.

* Many communities in larger towns & cities have tons of offline learning opportunities for groups.

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