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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#161

Post by DoItToMe81 »

twoodfin wrote: post #25
hbbio wrote: post #4

Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...

Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by insurgent & other non-US-aligned forces, with Ukrainian deaths from indiscriminate Russian shelling of civilian neighborhoods.

The US funded and trained state death squads in Iraq, which engaged in anti-Sunni sectarian violence. We know from leaks that this violence was broadly tolerated, and even encouraged. There are cases of suspected insurgents being handed over to them to be disappeared. The blood is just as much on the hands of the US government as Ukraine's is on the Russian government.

By the Iraq War Bodycount's dataset, the civilian kill count of US forces alone, without including the Iraqi government forces, almost matches that of the sectarian terrorists who explicitly sought out to kill civilians. From occupation to leaving in 2011, it is only about 20% less. That is plainly unacceptable and criminal in any context.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/oct/25/iraq-t...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/24/iraq-war-logs-...

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2010-03-10/oba...

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2011-05-23/us-...

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/iraqs-new-death-sq...

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#162

Post by scrollaway »

hutzlibu wrote: post #151
scrollaway wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches. This gets more of them to oppose Putin. And several are now having to come out publicly speaking against him. This is how we're helping a coup d'état happen. It's a good and solid strategy. A lot is riding on this.

"We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches" Ok, I would be somewhat fine with it, if it is only "freezing". But still not without some form of process, that shows links of them to the government, or support/benefit of the war. Because otherwise this sets a (further) dangerous precedent. There was something called, "rule of the law".

Pray tell, where is the rule of the law not being respected? Call out specific examples if this is where your problem with this lies.

But need I remind you, we are at war, with an enemy committing war crimes every day and absolutely not respecting any "rule of the law". When you're up against fair adversaries, it's right to call for a fair fight. When you're up against somebody who's getting dangerously close to getting us into a nuclear war, it's ok to take some damn shortcuts.

Fat good the "long term consequences" of not having followed proper procedures will do us if half of Europe is irradiated. As we say in France, "there are largers cats to whip". I don't care, I live in Brussels, well within the blast zone.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#163

Post by ajsnigrutin »

scotty79 wrote: post #157
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not random. All. And I fully expect the world to do it if USA ever does invade Mexico or Canda with tanks and starts shelling civilians just because they want to annex them. Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Shelling civillians? Like bombing a civillian train? https://en.wikipe…

> Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Because those are different things. > So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich? No, I don't agree.

"It's different when we do it"?

Why don't you agree? Americans occupied a sovereign country, started a war there... why no sanctions against american oligarchs? And if not, why sanctions now against the russians?

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#164

Post by gilbetron »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#165

Post by juanani »

stef25 wrote: post #140
someotherperson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Morallly obtuse" as if that wasn't what the US was doing[0]. I guess the Red Cross centre my cousin worked in was a legitimate military target when it was hit with a US airstrike :) Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1]. Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes an…

Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeri…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#166

Post by scrollaway »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #156
scrollaway wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't make accusations you can't back up. I never defended america's atrocities, repeatedly called them out, volunteered and donated time and money for Syria's refugee crisis as much as I could. I'm more personally involved in the Ukraine war because this is my government, and my extended family is targeted. But I never fucking ignored Syria, and I'm not ignoring it now. I'm saying that all you're doing here is helpi…

And I live in what was once Yugoslavia, and a part of our former country was bombed by nato. Let's say you have a country, and there is a minority in that country... and people hate eachother a bit, due to historical reasons, there are tensions, a war, the minority unilaterally declares independence, some superpowers support them at this (others don't), main country disagrees and attacks the separatists, and after al…

Hi, I live in Belgium, a country that like many others has a dark past of colonialism (who is currently trying to make amends for it).

We're pointing fingers. Switzerland is pointing fingers. I'm OK with the USA's support in the fingerpointing, so please let us have their fucking support. Every Ukrainian I know is OK with the USA's support, and it's been by far some of the most effective in this war, so please let them have their fucking support.

You don't get to pick and choose your own allies, LET ALONE SOMEONE ELSE'S.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#167

Post by scotty79 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #163
scotty79 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why mexico or canada? Why not for iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? Libya? Yemen? Jugoslavia? Why only for annexation and not for "just bombing" or even occupation, with yes, tanks? Because those are different things. > So you agree, that if US/NATO doesn't immediately pull out from eg. syria, that switzerland can take away googles property in Zurich? No, I don't agree.

"It's different when we do it"? Why don't you agree? Americans occupied a sovereign country, started a war there... why no sanctions against american oligarchs? And if not, why sanctions now against the russians?

It's different when it's different.

Full scale invasion with intent to annex with nearly complete global opposition is different from America going around the world to kill people at their whim, very often with support and acceptance of other nations and occasionally with support of large groups of people in countries America messes up.

Putin invaded two countries and parts of Ukraine already in a predictible pattern. And next ones in line are NATO countries. I guess enough's enough to take action.

Serbs in Yougoslavia tried to do racial cleansing. Ukrainians never had such ideas.

By drawing such overstretched parallels you are no different than Putin supporting Russian now, nazi German after the WWII or Serb after they were stopped.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#168

Post by hutzlibu »

scrollaway wrote: post #162
hutzlibu wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches" Ok, I would be somewhat fine with it, if it is only "freezing". But still not without some form of process, that shows links of them to the government, or support/benefit of the war. Because otherwise this sets a (further) dangerous precedent. There was something called, "rule of the law".

Pray tell, where is the rule of the law not being respected? Call out specific examples if this is where your problem with this lies. But need I remind you, we are at war , with an enemy committing war crimes every day and absolutely not respecting any "rule of the law". When you're up against fair adversaries, it's right to call for a fair fight. When you're up against somebody who's getting dangerously close to get…

"we are at war"

Erm, no we are not. Russia is at war with the ukraine, but not with the EU, nor the USA. So maybe do not escalate?

"where is the rule of the law not being respected"

Where is it? It is not the case btw. that there is a title called "oligarchs". What all of this means in its current shape, is targeting simply rich russian people. Now sure, chances are quite high, that they got to their wealth through crime, but law does not usually operate on cliches.

"with an enemy committing war crimes every day"

And as far as I can tell, way more horrible are being done in Yemen for example since 2014 with no one giving a shit about it.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#169

Post by juanani »

scotty79 wrote: post #106
cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

> Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? Yes. And if America invaded Mexico and started shelling their cities, I'd like the world to do exactly the same. Tank the dollar into the ground and seize all assets of American companies and individuals who own over a 100mln dollars and stop all trade. You are benefi…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#170

Post by CTDOCodebases »

cyberpunk wrote: post #2

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dia…

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process?

Who said there's no due process? That's why it's getting seized. Forfeiture happens later if it's proven laws have been broken.

Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Maybe if the Taliban seized the assets of rich american elites America would have left Afghanistan a lot sooner.

>Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary.

I'm watching people lose all their private property or worse while the aggressor responsible for the situation threatens “consequences greater than any you have faced in history” to any nation who wishes to step in and stop this. Pretty scary huh?

>We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.

So no military intervention and sanctions. How is this supposed to end? I don't think apathy will do it.

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