Live data from Hacker News

There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

tidbits.com

161–170 of 288 posts

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#161

I feel like this post was intended to inflame or shock the reader with the writers stance on password policy. But anyone who has been in security for more than 1 month knows that regular password rotation has not been a recommendation for over 5 years. Both NIST, and MS have been trying to get the world to move to long, never rotated password, so long as those passwords are dictionary checked. Every company (all 3 of…

Please do not group password rotation and special character restriction. One strengthens, the other weakens security. The only reason I can think that rotation would be a bad idea (aside from frustration, which is another very critical issue) is if users are not using strong passwords on each iteration.

The solution is for a standard to emerge that incorporates rotation and (optionally random) password generation used across sites. No more fucking "Login with Google".

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#162

I feel like this post was intended to inflame or shock the reader with the writers stance on password policy. But anyone who has been in security for more than 1 month knows that regular password rotation has not been a recommendation for over 5 years. Both NIST, and MS have been trying to get the world to move to long, never rotated password, so long as those passwords are dictionary checked. Every company (all 3 of…

> regular password rotation has not been a recommendation for over 5 years

It's just that it was a strident recommendation for 10 years prior to that, perhaps because many systems didn't support long passphrases but it was drummed into enough heads that it is now "conventional wisdom" especially in many business and government "enterprise" shops.

Even my latest employer, an academic institution with security folks who know better, still forces a passphrase change every other year.

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#163
post #81

Worth keeping in mind that passwords do actually leak. Companies have had incidents where they were inadvertently logging secrets passed to them. I've also typed/pasted secrets in the wrong field, which can get into some database or user-interface tracking tool. I've typed my sudo password instead of a vpn password at the command line, thinking sudo login had triggered when it was instead cached. Who knows when these…

If you do not reuse passwords and one of them does leak, then the only thing affected is the site/service that was compromised. Hence the word "unique" in the title.

Scenario: Your device has a keylogger. It already happened that e.g. android device makers were overly aggressive in debug logging almost everything, including everything you type or paste on the clipboard.

Leaking a password on your side is an unknown unknown, so password rotation is not a bad practice on its own for a security conscious person: It limits a leak in time.

Mandatory password rotation is a whole different kettle of fish, as it pushes users to lower password quality. Infosec policy was required to balance 2 conflicting needs, and the past has thougt us we balanced wrong.

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#165
The tldr of this post:

   What Should You Do?

   There’s a simple checklist of improvements you can make to keep your passwords forever secret:

    If you aren’t already, start using a password manager.
    Use the password manager to generate strong, unique passwords for every account.
    Review old accounts that contain personal, proprietary, or financial information and update their passwords using the password manager.
    Never share personal facts, like your pet’s name, when required. Instead, replace a real fact with random text that you store in your password manager for later access.
    Enable two-factor authentication wherever available.
I can't argue with any of this! But there are obstacles on the path to this utopia. Password managers are becoming more and more usable for average folks, though I've seen some confusion in some of my non-tech friends/family, esp when integrated into browsers. There's also the question of market penetration. Is your grandma going to use a password manager?

Other trends I've seen:

Passwordless auth tying into WebAuthN. If a site can tie into a method secured by the OS, all the better. I'm not sure the uptake, but have seen some presentations/comments about it being a far superior UX. Also, seen some startups built (and raising $$$) around just this.

Known, trusted bigcos like Facebook (ya, I know, but they are trusted by lots of non tech folks) and Google. This has some upsides because they can secure accounts really well, and also keep on top of new security reqs like MFA. But there're plenty of HN stories about being locked out of these IdPs, so this may be a bit of a scary delegation for some.

Passwordless auth tied to email. This is great for low value, infrequently used accounts because often 'send me creds via email' is the default path anyway, usually via 'forgot password' flows.

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#166

I feel like this post was intended to inflame or shock the reader with the writers stance on password policy. But anyone who has been in security for more than 1 month knows that regular password rotation has not been a recommendation for over 5 years. Both NIST, and MS have been trying to get the world to move to long, never rotated password, so long as those passwords are dictionary checked. Every company (all 3 of…

Every company I work at requires regular rotation and other idiotic rules which lead people to choose demonstrably weaker passwords. My company refuses to listen to reason and accuses us of trying to subvert security when we point out their antiquated process. What do you recommend?

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#167

Possibly contrarian point of view: a) Passwords should be easily rememberable. Pick four words are string them together (e.g. correcthorsebatterystaple). b) You must have a physical security key to authenticate - a Yubikey etc. If those two factors are not enough, then forget working from home / mobile authentication - require people to arrive in-person and work in-person, with network restrictions on top of the two-…

>network restrictions on top of the two -factor authentication

That is exactly what I thought was the case too until I recently entered the code Google Authenticator gave me although my mobile was not connected to the internet. And it worked.

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#168

I feel like this post was intended to inflame or shock the reader with the writers stance on password policy. But anyone who has been in security for more than 1 month knows that regular password rotation has not been a recommendation for over 5 years. Both NIST, and MS have been trying to get the world to move to long, never rotated password, so long as those passwords are dictionary checked. Every company (all 3 of…

Please do not group password rotation and special character restriction. One strengthens, the other weakens security. The only reason I can think that rotation would be a bad idea (aside from frustration, which is another very critical issue) is if users are not using strong passwords on each iteration. The solution is for a standard to emerge that incorporates rotation and (optionally random) password generation use…

10+ years of data has strongly indicated that yes indeed "rotation is a bad idea, because users don't use strong passwords when they are forced to rotate them"

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#169
This is good for developers but there are two important unknowns if you're an end user:

1) You don't know whether the service or site employs best practices e.g. throttling. (Although you might be able to test that yourself if you're tech savvy.) So you may have to assume the worst, and there goes Point 1.

2) You can't be sure they will report a breach if it occurs, or that the password will ever show up in e.g. haveibeenpwned. So there goes Point 3.

Point 2, you do have control over.

Re: There’s no need to change passwords if they're robust, unique and not breached

#170
It's all right there in NIST 800-63-3 https://pages.nist.gov/800-63-3/sp800-63-3.html

Big takeaways:

Longer passwords.

No hard requirement of symbols.

Passwords don't change unless its in breach notifications online

Regular scanning of breaches for hacked login/passwords or commonly used passwords

Post reply on HN