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Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

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Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#161
post #72

Just talked about this today with a few of my Russian friends. This only prompts Putin ratings to grow. It frustrates the opposition (30% of Russians). But it also makes the supporters hate the west even more. So if all these sanctions are there to frustrate people to create a coup and a revolution - its currently working in the opposite direction. EDIT: I don't mean it as something that I wish, just stating an opini…

So, appeasing Putin and giving him everything he wants will make his ratings drop. Sure.

This hasn't been implied anywhere, please read again.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#162
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, cuba working with the soviets caused USA to propose a LOT of sanctions against them (that are still there), and also planed a false-flag attack on US soil to get a 'reason' to attack cuba - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods ..so ukraine joining nato is not that much different. What putin is doing now is something along the Kosovo playbook... someone has interest in some area somewhere (u…

> .so ukraine joining nato is not that much different Yeah it is, the Baltics are already in NATO. Ukraine joining would not significantly change the balance of power in the region. Cuba on the other hand was far more significant because the Soviet Union did not otherwise have assets so close to the US. Also the US never invaded Cuba in the way Russia invaded Ukraine. Their actions were more comparable to Russian sup…

>>>the Baltics are already in NATO. Ukraine joining would not significantly change the balance of power in the region.

Just look at a map. There's a reason "Turn the map around" is a mantra in professional military officer schools in the West: it's essential to understanding your adversary.

Russia's land border with Estonia and Latvia is ~325km long, straddling Lakes Peipus and Pihkva. This is a small frontage, and fairly easy for Russia's massive army to defend.

There is only 1 MSR/highway (M-9) that leads to Russia from these Baltic States, and the distance is just about 570km. The operational combat range of an M1 Abrams or Leopard 2 MBT is ~450km. So they can't reach Moscow from NATO territory without stopping to refuel a good distance short of the capital.

Now let's add a NATO-member Ukraine to the mix. Not even including Crimea, the Russian-Ukrainian land border is over 1200km long. That is a LOT of frontage to protect. It features 2 MSRs/highways with direct access to Moscow, 3 if you took a detour to secure Voronezh (not an easy task). If you use subsidiary roads from the closest part of Ukraine's border, before merging onto the M-3 highway, you can get to Moscow in about ~475km, JUST about the maximum range for tanks.

So Russia would be risking shorting the invasion distance to their capital by 20%, putting it in range of a mechanized lightning thrust. It would also massively complicate their ability to mass combat power on their border because their NATO front would quintuple in length. It would give the US the option of putting anti-ballistic missiles in eastern Ukraine, closer to potential Russian launch locations and probably making it easier to achieve boost-phase intercepts of ICBMs. That undermines the strategic deterrence balance of power/MAD. US ABMs in Eastern Europe is something Russian leadership has been bitching about for 15 years. For some reason we keep pretending to not consider their concerns legitimate.

That's a WHOLE lotta downsides. What is the UPSIDE, for Russia, of a NATO-member Ukraine, though? Pretty much nothing. So Russia's leadership did some risk mitigation calculus and they figured that immediate economic damage was more acceptable than the highly-negative long term Expected Value of a NATO Ukraine. Even if the probability of NATO attacking is low, the damage potential is astronomical. Keep in mind this is a country who's arguably most important holiday commemorates the war where they lost 25+ million lives fighting off an invasion from a hostile alliance on their western border. That's still in living memory for them.

Where they miscalculated was a) Putin's perceptions of the Ukrainian popular sentiment and b) their military's actual ability to pull off a nearly-bloodless blitz of Kiev to facilitate a regime change. The Russian military is looking hella-incompetent right now. I think if Kiev had fallen in <72hrs, there wouldn't even be sanctions against Russia today.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#163
post #130
post #72

Just talked about this today with a few of my Russian friends. This only prompts Putin ratings to grow. It frustrates the opposition (30% of Russians). But it also makes the supporters hate the west even more. So if all these sanctions are there to frustrate people to create a coup and a revolution - its currently working in the opposite direction. EDIT: I don't mean it as something that I wish, just stating an opini…

> So if all these sanctions are there to frustrate people to create a coup and a revolution - its currently working in the opposite direction. I do not believe that is the purpose. I think the idea is to make it costly for Putin to go forward. Sadly this is at the cost of the well-being of the russian population.

Yep it will be, but he also doesn't care about the people - thats indeed the worst part :(

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#164
post #83
post #72

Just talked about this today with a few of my Russian friends. This only prompts Putin ratings to grow. It frustrates the opposition (30% of Russians). But it also makes the supporters hate the west even more. So if all these sanctions are there to frustrate people to create a coup and a revolution - its currently working in the opposite direction. EDIT: I don't mean it as something that I wish, just stating an opini…

You misunderstand. A coup by the people on the streets is tremendously unlikely, but the odds of a palace coup grows every day. The people most hurt by these sanctions are those closest to Putin, the people who have made themselves fabulously wealthy by maintaining close ties to the government. Their quality of life has been most severely impacted by this move.

I don't, but your assumption is right. The issue is that Putin holds power over them. The question is under which conditions... EDIT: typo

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#165
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this "Chinese production + Russian... (I guess just oil) = superior economic system" argument before, but I suspect these people have never opened a history book on Sino-Soviet relations. Because of decades of undermining and backstabbing, the trust between these two societies is pretty close to zero despite "communism". The only thing they really have in common is that they are both autocratic governments, so…

Except this isn’t the case at all. Modern Russia, and Modern China are as tight as ever. Being driven closer by the West.

The is where I’ll agree with Putin that our deceitful western media is trying to create tension with the east. /s

Russia is not even a Top 10 GDP economy.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#166
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe that he wanted to take over Ukraine in just a few days and was surprised by Ukraine's defence and multiple desertions in his own army. Everything I have read that isn't heavily biased anti-Russia propaganda says Russia has exercised enormous restraint so far in this invasion. There's no reason I see to believe Putin's been surprised by Ukraine's defenses, it's not as if all of Russia's forces at the borde…

Iskander missles and Smerch rockets hitting residential buildings and killing hundreds of civilians is restraint? I hope you'll never have to deal with Russia's restraint.

>>>Iskander missles and Smerch rockets hitting residential buildings and killing hundreds of civilians is restraint?

By Russian standards? Yes. Absolutely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny_ballistic_missile_attac...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

https://airwars.org/conflict/russian-military-in-syria/

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks stupid to me too. Which is precisely why I think there's information I'm missing. Like, I've seen arguments that the whole "Ukraine joining NATO" justification is just a pretext. But if that's just a pretext, what's the actual reason? I haven't seen a good answer yet. I honestly don't think we'll know the true story for decades.

This may BE the information you were missing. To some extent I think the extensive propaganda about numerous political/celebrity figures being great and powerful and capable has been a sham from the beginning. I would call the war on Ukraine 'put up or shut up' time, where reality tests the value of the claims that have been made for many, many years. I think we've all been told a lot of lies for a long time. History…

Many leaders who had the wherewithal to establish themselves in power can then coast on the inertial force of their authority and reputation for years or even decades in a way that makes them continue looking capable. The frequent reality however is that coming to power politically isn't necessarily the same as keeping it or making sound decisions in many other area (such as military strategy). Thus, an established dictator can turn into a complete bumbler, but because of earlier successes in his domestic political arena, people keep thinking he has some sort of clever plan up his sleeve in any other scenario though it might not at all be the case.

Hitler was an example of this. He cleverly came to power, astutely conserved himself in power for years, but then badly fucked up almost from the beginning once he embarked on major military adventures. However, many people kept believing him even militarily clever because of previous political cleverness. I believe something similar is the case with Putin (This is not a comparison of Putin with Hitler in moral terms, just an example)

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CIPS isn't about trusting China with your money, it's just an interchange system. It's not necessary to trust Chinese or Russia banks.

CIPS is about getting money to Chinese banks (effectively the only members). The commenter is suggesting that having money in those banks is not a desired outcome for most institutions due to the fact that Chinese finance does not run on the same premises as institutions used to doing business with the west.

Russian banks are joining CIPS now, and likely other countries will as well.

You're getting money to Chinese banks because presumably you are buying something from someone that has an account there, not for safeholding.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#169
post #137

One way this already backfired: credit cards cannot be used to pay for hosting and VPN services.

Isn't that the sanction working as intended? I understand your point, those services might be used by Russians against the war, but they can also be used by Russians who support the war. There's nothing good about any of this, the harm being done to ordinary Russians by sanctions isn't good, or desirable, or even deserved. Nobody in the west wants to be doing this. It is necessary though, unfortunately.

The state will have access to both anyway. Inconveniences like these are significant for individuals but trivial for organizations, especially those not bound by law.

Re: Visa, Mastercard block Russian financial institutions after sanctions

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CIPS is about getting money to Chinese banks (effectively the only members). The commenter is suggesting that having money in those banks is not a desired outcome for most institutions due to the fact that Chinese finance does not run on the same premises as institutions used to doing business with the west.

Russian banks are joining CIPS now, and likely other countries will as well. You're getting money to Chinese banks because presumably you are buying something from someone that has an account there, not for safeholding.

It’s going to take a long time for international companies to get the yuan/cips/China bank corridor working, those relationships don’t get built quickly and most places that aren’t dealing directly with China don’t bank there (as opposed to the UK, Ireland or other countries that act as banking nexus’.

Those Chinese banks can’t even be used for traditional style fx management because you’ll have to double fx from local currency to yuan and yuan to ruble. The yuan fx scene is much less efficient and liquid as well.

What this more likely does is set Russian & Chinese firms to trade with each other. That looks a lot like the North Korea relationship.

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