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Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

reuters.com

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Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#161

Post by nicoburns »

mvc wrote: post #38
atlantas wrote: post #10

90%! Did we really let ourselves become so reliant on Ukraine and Taiwan for computer chips? Taiwan being the next country most under threat. In fact, Reuters just reported that "Taiwan warns Chinese aircraft in its air defence zone" https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

Are we in favor of economics/capitalism here or are we not? Because the economics literature is quite clear that international trade is beneficial to all involved. It's what we insist that developing countries focus on exports when loaning them money. For many years, Taiwan has been the poster child that we point to when trying to change the ways of Cuba or Venezuela. Are these principles so weak that we would allow…

I would say that the economics literature is very clear that international trade is frequently not beneficial to all involved. Haiti would be a clear example of a case when it was not.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#162

Post by Aunche »

roughly wrote: post #18
atlantas wrote: post #10

90%! Did we really let ourselves become so reliant on Ukraine and Taiwan for computer chips? Taiwan being the next country most under threat. In fact, Reuters just reported that "Taiwan warns Chinese aircraft in its air defence zone" https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

But we saved some money by shuttering all our factories and outsourcing everything, so, who's to say what the right answer was. (/s)

On the other hand without globalization, there is no way the relatively tiny island of Taiwan could have become the world leader in chip manufacturing, and the US would have less incentive to invest in their security.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#163

Post by ceejayoz »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #145
ceejayoz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In part, because Taiwan's ADIZ extends over mainland China . https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:JADIZ_and_CADIZ_and_... (ADIZs are also unilateral and not something set up in international law; they're basically a request)

I agree these stories should not be overblown, and have been a regular occurrence. It isn’t a worrisome escalation. But it is incorrect to say they are happening because the ADIZ extends over Chinese territory. The repeated incursions are out over the ocean, most commonly over the SW corner of the ADIZ which is not over mainland China. China is doing it intentionally, and is both testing and prodding Taiwan.

To be clear, though, under international law China has every right to fly in those areas. Just like when we fly/sail 12 miles off Russia, or send ships past the islands China's making in the South China Sea.

When we do it, it's a "freedom of navigation" exercise. Yes, it's testing air defenses, but it frustrates me when officials breathlessly act like it's a big deal.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#164

Post by krazerlasers »

tgflynn wrote: post #40

Can someone explain why neon is critical for "lasers used in chip manufacturing" ? I don't think they'd be using He-Ne lasers, and if they are I would think those could be replaced fairly easily with solid-state lasers.

Somewhat counterintuitively, the primary gas species used in excimer lasers are noble gasses. A typical gas mix for a 193nm excimer laser would be ~97% neon and just a few percent of the actual argon/fluorine excimer mix. [1]

Since you mentioned them -- as hard as it may be to believe -- HeNe lasers are only just beginning to be phased out in the semi industry in the somewhat esoteric use case of precision position measurement using interferometry. The output wavelength of a HeNe lase is extremely stable--with a simple feedback loop on the cavity length (ie, temperature) a HeNe laser is essentially an atomic clock locked to the 473.612248 THz 5s2 → 3p HeNe line. Interferometers built around such systems can accurately measure sub-nanometer displacements and are able to achieve a lifetime absolute stability of better than 10ppb--comparable to a rubidium atomic clock! [2]

[1] https://www.linde-gas.com/en/images/Gasworld%20Excimer%20Las...

[2] https://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserhst.htm#hstish3

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#165

Post by javajosh »

Guthur wrote: post #160

This is not the reason. Pure and simply Russia needs people, its dying. Low birth rate, high death rate, little immigration to make up the short fall (who wants to move to Russia :)), and to top off a weak economy that will struggle to support a small less active workforce. Interestingly Ukraine has pretty much the same population problem. This will be increasingly common problem for countries as population growth sl…

Aging population implies a decades spike in demand for elder care. How does it imply an invasion?

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#166

Post by darkhorn »

Some Russian products that you would like to avoid:

* Yandex * Lukoil * WinRAR * Kaspersky * Lada * Russian Standard Original Vodka * Stoli Vodka * Baltika * Lukoil * Gazprom * Kamaz * Masha and the Bear * Kalashnikov * Stolichnaya * Ural motorcycles * VK

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#167

Post by pier25 »

We should be talking about grain, not gas.

Russia is the biggest exporter of wheat in the world with 18%. Ukraine accounts for 7% of the world's wheat.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/17/infographic-russia-...

This conflict will affect 1/4 of the world's wheat which will affect food prices.

In 2010 Russia stopped exporting wheat due to wildfires burning their fields (most likely caused by climate change). This caused a hike in food prices which helped trigger the Arab revolutions in 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Russian_wildfires

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#168

Post by buscoquadnary »

wyldfire wrote: post #49
atlantas wrote: post #10

90%! Did we really let ourselves become so reliant on Ukraine and Taiwan for computer chips? Taiwan being the next country most under threat. In fact, Reuters just reported that "Taiwan warns Chinese aircraft in its air defence zone" https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

Global trade has been a peacekeeping incentive for decades. But despots don't act for the sake of the people's will, so it's not easy to account for that. But anyways most markets are emergent, not planned strategically .

I've heard that repeatedly and I used to believe it to; however I have been recently studying WW1 and found out there were many people back then who said pretty much the same thing. They said that no one would want a war things were too profitable and there was too much trade, they were terribly terribly wrong.

The problem is WW1 wasn't one big "let's go to war" like Hitler and WW2, WW1 was the effects of hundreds of little consequences, edge cases, and constraints upon individuals and nations that interacted in a way no one could see. I believe the same thing will happen again, and it will probably come as a result of a Pakistani-Indian conflict or something from Iran. It isn't something anyone can see right now, but its coming, just like no one would've guessed the assassination of an Archduke would lead to 10 million dead across Europe, in the same way it will be something we can't determine right now that will push upon the constraints, agreements and edge cases to push us towards another global war.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#169

Post by replygirl »

Guthur wrote: post #160

This is not the reason. Pure and simply Russia needs people, its dying. Low birth rate, high death rate, little immigration to make up the short fall (who wants to move to Russia :)), and to top off a weak economy that will struggle to support a small less active workforce. Interestingly Ukraine has pretty much the same population problem. This will be increasingly common problem for countries as population growth sl…

ukraine's population growth and birth rates have been negative and below russia's for some time now, so annexation only makes that worse per-capita.

it's not clear that a flattening of the growth rate is a bad thing for quality of life or economic security, in spite of how it affects an economy on paper

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#170

Post by nacs »

baq wrote: post #132
jcadam wrote: post #48

I'm more concerned about Ukraine's wheat exports, personally. Likely to become a critical issue much more quickly than neon gas.

and corn. ZC=F today was crazy.

Corn is less of an issue -- US has a massive surplus of corn.
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