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Misidentifying talent

danluu.com

161–167 of 167 posts

Re: Misidentifying talent

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s striking that so many stories about the triumph of metrics over intuition involve games. I’m convinced that you should put statisticians in charge if your goal is to win a game. I enjoy playing around with baseball data. About a year before the pandemic, I went out and presented some research at a Sabermetrics conference hosted by the Boston Red Sox. 90% of the pro teams had their data science teams present, a…

It’s interesting that your anecdote lined up so well with the example from the OP about people claiming that the metrics didn’t change much. Though those people were then giving ‘supporting’ examples that support the opposite of their statement. It may be that the person you talked to worked on eg play strategy which could have been affected totally differently from scouting.

I was intentionally vague about who I spoke to, to keep some amount of anonymity for him ;) The question was about baseball in general and not a specific aspect of it.

As far as play strategy goes, it's actually really interesting that baseball does not allow for real-time analytics in the game. You can print out some cards and give them to players to keep in their pocket (baseball uniforms have pockets!) and they can refer to them during the game. You can give a binder full of information to the coach and he can keep it in the dugout. But once the game begins, you cannot communicate strategy to the players and coaches. That's quite different than most sports.

What is interesting about scouting/player development vs play strategy is that the "revolution" in scouting started 100 years ago! Branch Rickey, most famous for signing and playing Jackie Robinson with the Brooklyn Dodgers, began creating the modern farm system for St. Louis in 1919 - with a lot of derision from other teams. But funny thing - from that point on (until he left for Brooklyn) nobody but the Yankees won more games than the Cardinals. The Chicago Cubs and Philadelphia Phillies at various times hired people to collect data about young players to use for skill development and practice recommendations, as well as personnel decisions. The shape of a guys butt and the attractiveness of his girlfriend are actually data driven heuristics!!!

Re: Misidentifying talent

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This eliminates everyone currently employed but looking for another job from your hiring process. Seems like you're severely limiting yourselves with this tactic.

Being employed also makes candidates more attractive. If you don’t have many resources, why waste them trying to compete for the same subset of the pool of good candidates as everyone else when you can get better efficiency going for the candidates which the competition undervalues?

That seems like a very self-defeating attitude; sure, maybe your pay isn't at FAANG levels, but maybe something else about your company (less demanding hours, better benefits, generous vacation, tuition assistance, better business practices, better development practices, etc.) will attract a candidate. Maybe they're someone transitioning out of a different field but they have the skills you need (I'm self-taught and worked as a mechanical engineer before I was hired as a developer, for example).

You don't have to compete on pay to attract good talent, but refusing to compete on the least amount of time wasted will only attract people with a certain set of life circumstances that have no bearing on their skillset.

Re: Misidentifying talent

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being employed also makes candidates more attractive. If you don’t have many resources, why waste them trying to compete for the same subset of the pool of good candidates as everyone else when you can get better efficiency going for the candidates which the competition undervalues?

That seems like a very self-defeating attitude; sure, maybe your pay isn't at FAANG levels, but maybe something else about your company (less demanding hours, better benefits, generous vacation, tuition assistance, better business practices, better development practices, etc.) will attract a candidate. Maybe they're someone transitioning out of a different field but they have the skills you need (I'm self-taught and…

I think I did a poor job of explaining myself above, so let me try again.

If one accepts the premise of the OP that typical interviewing processes are bad at identifying good recruits, and if one believes the trends implied by eg hiring behaviours of big companies and some hn comments, then that implies:

- there is some subset of candidates who are attractive to big companies and those companies mostly compete with each other for those candidates.

- there are candidates who would make good hires who are (incorrectly) identified as uninteresting by these large companies

And so:

- if you are better at identifying people who would make good hires than the big companies, you will be able to hire people big companies would overlook.

- on average your offers are more likely to be accepted by people with fewer offers by big companies (even if you can pay as well or better this is still true because if a candidate has more options they may choose one that isn’t yours for reasons you can’t control)

- so your recruiting will be more cost-effective (in terms of spending less resources finding candidates and, optionally, paying new hires less) if your process mostly finds people who are (a) likely good hires and (b) more likely to accept your offer (because they don’t have so many options).

If one believes that the toplevel poster in this thread finds good candidates by having week-long trial periods then one should also expect this process to be more cost-efficient as it naturally selects for candidates who are less likely to be competed for by other companies (because those companies mistakenly think that unemployed people are unemployable)

You don’t need to pay those people less; the cost being optimised for here could be the internal resources spent on the hiring process which can be high even if you have large teams.

I think one thing I struggled with for a while was that I implicitly felt that companies ought to be designing recruiting processes that could fairly identify any candidate who would be a good employee, but really it is sufficient for a company to come up with a process that gets sufficiently many hires at a reasonable cost and doing things like reducing the applicant pool with arbitrary restrictions like job history or pedigree may reduce the cost of applying the later stages (because they would be applied to fewer people) even if it increases the salary they are hired at (because eg they are using the same arbitrary restrictions as many other companies).

Re: Misidentifying talent

#164
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the reason why he won't fix it is because typographers were condescending to him: https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1228042394727149568

That seems like an incorrect reading of the thread. Seems more like ‘I like long lines and found little evidence that they are bad.’ I think I believe that he’s read roughly all the studies and that they are unconvincing. That doesn’t mean they’re aren’t people for whom the formatting is problematic. I think it’s also a bit of countersignalling about the nature of the blog. There are also easy workarounds like making…

> I’ve never really understood this problem.

Oh no way. Yet here you are, despite having the option to say nothing at all about the problem you don't understand.

You absolutely do not need to go to bat for someone who requires convincing from studies about obvious things. What a weird and sad way to live this, your one and only life. Hope he sees this.

Re: Misidentifying talent

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s imagine hypothetically there is some circuit genetically encoded in every human’s brain that gives +10% probability of agreeing with someone if they are a tall male. Let’s also imagine hypothetically that in many situations, the speed and strength of consensus itself has value beyond the quality of the decision reached, so eg. quickly reaching a strong consensus on the 2nd-best solution would be better than fig…

I was pondering this recently and I wondered if ones relationship with their father as a small child impacts this effect as well. If as a kid one looked up to their father, literally, and had positive interactions, well that's some pretty deeply ingrained feedback loops there. Yes this is pop psych nonsense, but one does wonder.

The cynical side of me says it's one's hindbrain may be subconsciously whispering "This person is bigger than I am and could beat me to death, it's better not to antagonize them, or 'compete' with them in any way. They look like they'll always be on the winning side, so that's where I'll be".

Re: Misidentifying talent

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has not been my experience. Everywhere I've worked (a bunch of different kinds of places now) has been hungry for people who can help out with the broader more ambiguous direction-setting and decision-making needs of the company, but most developers I've worked with are not very energized by this kind of work.

Places I have worked have said they wanted these people. I was explicitly chosen for one job because they thought I would provide value there. Joined the ticket clearing line all the same.

Everyone has different experiences I suppose!

Re: Misidentifying talent

#167

I strongly agree with this. Every programmer who became "upper management" also happened to be 6'1"+. Shocking. Funny enough, the shorter programmers were generally much more competent from having to actually earn their place. If you have to pick a doctor or lawyer on looks alone, I recommend picking the shorter guy (or the woman!)

Let’s imagine hypothetically there is some circuit genetically encoded in every human’s brain that gives +10% probability of agreeing with someone if they are a tall male. Let’s also imagine hypothetically that in many situations, the speed and strength of consensus itself has value beyond the quality of the decision reached, so eg. quickly reaching a strong consensus on the 2nd-best solution would be better than fig…

Hypothetically, genetic engineering seems to outperform in such a world.
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