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App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

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Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#161
post #30

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Like all the shitty games with circular ads that which I also think should not exist? Can't wait for an actual curated store.

How will this ‘curated store’ be profitable?

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#162

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How is it forcefully being removed from you?

I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone. That's the thesis for a treatise I could write. This breaks the contract I had with them upon purchase.

> I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone.

Any software license you may have purchased is a non-exclusive one. Apple can re-license their own software however they wish.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#163

I blame consumers for the duopoly we have. I get that practically, it's a farce to call this choice we have real and significant but these marketplaces exist because of the demand. Making this duopoly more convenient for app-makers only kicks the can and further re-enforces the duopoly. In an ideal world, people would fund projects like the PinePhone or PostMarketOS, but our "solution" to the walled-garden is apparen…

The essence of what you’re saying is: People should want something they don’t want. Because… People who want to make that thing would like a job making it. But it’s backwards, you can’t say that people “should” be a certain way you have to look at how they actually are. Being passionate about building something does not convey a right to a job doing that. It makes for a fine hobby - but outside of that build somethin…

I never said people have a right to make a living off of their passions. People don't. Passionate people are not divorced from the market but active participants in it.

I, however, would like to pay people to make this thing that may just happen to have a passionate origin. I also think many people want some polished version of this thing to exist, despite not wanting to fund its manufacture and maintenance. I think the inconvenience to the user in the interim is worth it, but many/most don't agree with me and that is one reason it doesn't exist.

Making legislation to force third-party marketplaces to exist on a "platform" is more in line with your concern, to be honest. It's forcing an entity to do something it doesn't want to do. If consumers cared about this, they would move to a different platform or gasp create a competitor that does what they want. I already know of some people that have moved from Apple to Android simply because side-loading is possible.

Also, I take issue with the notion that in order for something to exist today, it has to have "broad mainstream appeal". A marketplace by its very nature benefits from diversity of marketed goods, but just like any other product, it shouldn't need to completely displace market leaders to exist. The rise of megalythic companies, VC being promised eventual Google-scale growth of their bets and people's general squeamishness at using anything at all unpolished or inconvenient has created this world where everything needs to be huge in order to be considered successful in any meaningful way.

F-droid is a thing and I don't think anyone would argue it

A. Doesn't exist.

B. Is a real competitor to the Google Play Store.

C. Doesn't invovle people in the market, both developers and users, who are happy that it exists and wish to further it's growth.

I can say, I think a lot of the problems we currently have and ones we are trying to spotfix with legislation could be better solved via a more conscious consumption. "Should" is a subjective term based on a cost/benefit analysis and while I think people should act differently, I don't think they should be barred from acting as they have today nor are they morally corrupt for doing so.

Everyone buckets and weights the pros and cons of everything differently.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#164
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like all the shitty games with circular ads that which I also think should not exist? Can't wait for an actual curated store.

How will this ‘curated store’ be profitable?

A curated app store doesn't need to be profitable to be useful for both users and developers. Example: F-Droid.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#165
I find the FUD against third party app stores on iOS to be simultaneously crediting Apple with providing immense amounts of security in its App Store, and believing that it would be incredibly helpless without sole control through its App Store. That's very contradictory, both in ignoring the many, many vulnerabilities and scams that have proliferated on the App Store through the years (not to mention other negative user experience), but also ignoring the great pains that Apple has in ensuring security through layers and mechanisms beyond the App Store.

iOS is more secure than Android not simply because the App Store is better curated than the Play Store, but protections built in its very own operating system model. There are permissions restrictions that Apple has guarded carefully and not subject to removal through the permitting of third party app stores.

Furthermore, because Apple still has ultimate control of its operating system, it can design a careful flow to enable the use of third party app stores and side loading. It can hide it deep in Settings behind multitudes of "are you sure?" windows and security checks. It can coax users not to relinquish protections.

Hell, if Apple embraced the whole decentralized app store idea, it can provide an AppStoreKit SDK and sets of standards for third party app stores to adopt, a sort of security certification system that they can choose to conform to and be recognized for meeting Apple standards, similar to Apple's verified third-party repair stores.

The idea that allowing third party app stores will doom iOS is an anti-Apple critique in disguise, because it claims that Apple is helpless outside of its App Store. There is a lot more Apple can do.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#166

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On my PC I have a Windows Store, a Steam Store, an EA Origin store and an Epic Games store. There are problems with Windows, particularly because it is like a 25 year old OS. But I don't think the problems are due to those store. I like being able to buy things on the Windows Store and on Origin and Steam. If you are right and this makes things worse don't you think people will just stick with the Apple store? Full d…

> If you are right and this makes things worse don't you think people will just stick with the Apple store? No, they won’t. At a bare minimum, they’ll have the Google store and the Facebook store, and they’ll probably have a dozen others, because most people don’t actually care enough to make a principled stand on these kinds of things, but their lives will be shittier because of this, in the same way that we all hav…

> a bare minimum, they’ll have the Google store and the Facebook store

Why Google and FB in particular? Because of the ad tracking thing? Note that if Apple allows sideloading, then rather than installing G/FB’s official apps you’d be able to install 3rd-party clients to their services that mitigate tracking/block ads. Currently you can’t easily do this because of App Store policy disallowing apps that violate the ToS of services that they access.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#167
post #156

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Macs offer the option to run apps without any sandboxing whatsoever – meaning an app can run totally unrestricted and read, modify, or delete any file of any other app, including most system files. We’re not asking for that on iOS. So there’s no reason to think you’ll ever need "6 apps pre-installed designed purely to prevent malware/viruses” on your phone.

You seem to be engaging in magical thinking by imagining that a sandbox can prevent all malware. No serious security researcher would support this claim.

iOS provides many more security protections beyond sandboxing.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#168

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It becomes everyones user experience when every big company only offers their software on their own app store so they don't have to pay anyone else a cut.

Yes, but is that inevitable? Facebook tried to take advantage of Android's open nature in the past and failed outright, and that wasn't even an app store but an app launcher (Facebook Home). The Amazon Appstore is mostly used for their Fire Tablets anyway. Ditto Samsung Galaxy Store is specifically for their own devices. Epic's attempts at building their own mobile app store hasn't gotten anywhere. So what other phan…

So why are we doing this then?

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#169

People seem mostly mad about the IAP thing, so I don't understand why everyone keeps lumping third-party payments and third-party app stores together. They're completely orthogonal.

They are not orthogonal. Allowing third-party stores/sideloading implies allowing third-party payments, at least for apps distributed outside the App Store. Forcing the Apple to allow apps that use third-party payments on the App Store and forcing Apple to allow sideloading are orthogonal though.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but is that inevitable? Facebook tried to take advantage of Android's open nature in the past and failed outright, and that wasn't even an app store but an app launcher (Facebook Home). The Amazon Appstore is mostly used for their Fire Tablets anyway. Ditto Samsung Galaxy Store is specifically for their own devices. Epic's attempts at building their own mobile app store hasn't gotten anywhere. So what other phan…

So why are we doing this then?

Here's a small but more poignant reason: F-Droid exists on Android, not as a huge app store, but a nice FOSS-only community with its own standards of app quality and screening for malware. Surely as hackers we can at least appreciate an analogous community being made feasible on iOS, and not in a slightly more shady unofficial capacity like the jailbroken-only Cydia.

And surely, as hackers, we can appreciate having the freedom to not be unilaterally subject to the whims of a single corporation's dictates.

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