Live data from Hacker News

Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

thesaint.scot

161–170 of 223 posts

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#161
post #6

I would note that there are centuries of political theory written on this topic with a famous document written in 1848. Unfortunately, most of this theory concludes that class war is required to create an equal society.

And when it fails to do so (and leaves behind a new mountain of skulls in the process), it "wasn't real communism" that time.

That comparison always leaves out the larger mountains of skulls created created under capitalism, the Nazi regime for one, the 900k+ COVID deaths in the US, the intentional famine in Bengal [0], etc. It's a long list that is rarely considered.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-church...

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My personal answer, and seemingly not so popular, is education, at all stages. Former educator here, the problem with this idea is that educational outcomes are dominated by three factors: 1. More individualized education (smaller classes or tutors) 2. Children having a safe, well resourced home life 3. Smarter, less stressed teachers To get an idea of how strong (1) is it is useful to know of a result called Bloom…

Also it's not clear how to "do this correctly". The us spends more per Capita, inflation-adusted on education than it ever has in the past. Outcomes are not really getting dramatically better. The places that spend the most per pupil are often the worst school districts.

Spending numbers are not super informative, I'll ramble off a few things I find are non-obvious to people outside of education that relate to inequality.

1. Parents farther down the social totem pole are more unhappy and stressed as a cohort. The negative effects of a bad home life on kids is enormous and education is often impossible without dealing with some of these issues. You either spend your resources addressing those home issues are try to ignore them and throw good money after bad. (this also complicates cross-country comparisons because many of our social programs for kids are funded through the education budget where other countries put them in a health or social well-being budget).

2. When it was easier to achieve a higher quality of life on a single above average income you get higher quality teachers. A pattern you see amongst the best teachers who are now in their 50s or 60s is that their significant other had a good job and the teacher sacrificed a higher paying career for better hours for raising kids and the ability to easily move to almost any location with their spouse without their own career disruptions (since everyone needs teachers). This is no longer a good option unless your partner is earning a lot of money.

3. Funding numbers often fail to capture various types of donations in cash, materials, and/or labor. I grew up in a fairly rich neighborhood and my public school received thousands of hours of unpaid labor per year from parents, construction projects built cheap at high quality by parents who owned massive contracting businesses, an art program taught by rich moms who took minimum wage to just fill their day (to be clear, they were good teachers), and a whole host of other benefits. These benefits can be worth thousands of dollars per child per year.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#163
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just your speculation. A bunch of other people in this comment tree say it's not about outcomes in an unequal society being worse than outcomes in a (hypothetical, possibly unachievable) equal society with the same resources. Instead it's about a hardwired biological stress response that people lower in the social hierarchy have when they observe people higher up. So before we go lecturing about how it "isn't…

Where's the speculation? I shared a concrete example. Places without that method of funding have more equitable education systems. I'm not really concerned what others are saying. You made the claim that "There's no reason for my health to be harmed just because someone has more than me." I just gave an intuitive explanation of how this could happen. And you can see this happening on a global scale: wealthy countries…

You've completely missed my point in a manner that suggests further conversation may not be productive, but for what it's worth, your info on school funding is quite out of date: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-new-truth-school...

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#164
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not inequality, this is tribalism

Are they not interlinked? It seems to me that inequality often begets tribalism, as people defensively form bands. Which then reinforces the spiral downwards.

No, they are not. You can have virtually homogeneous group of people wearing different colored shirts or following different sport teams hostile to each other.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private landlords are basically lenders. The houses are there for anyone to buy. The landlords-to-be have the cash, or credit rating and scope for risk taking, to buy these houses and rent them out. I’m not saying they are some kind of godsend, rather that they are present precisely because renters wouldn’t buy the houses they live in, for whatever reason. If you take away the private landlords, you’d need to find th…

Landlords compete with aspiring homeowners, raising prices. Raising prices benefit landlords as what they get to charge for their “cost of capital” gains a higher proportion vs their cost of actually maintaining the property. I’m talking explicitly about lowering the cost of housing by reducing the amount of capital in the market from landlords.

Right, and where do the renters live? Someone needs to own the houses. Not every renter is on the cusp of buying.

If you make houses more expensive for landlords and don’t introduce some other source of housing, at best it’ll be a wash: lower prices for houses but extra taxes meaning landlords charge more or less the same rent. Or maybe prices won’t move much but landlords will charge more rent to cover their higher costs.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#166
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, don't be envious, man, just always take the little of what is offered, trying to negotiate better conditions for yourself is bad for your health. Do you know ultimatum game? There might be a good reason why envy exists.

Feel free to try and negotiate better whatever for yourself. But if stress about someone else having more is your driver, I think you're suffering needlessly.

My point was, what is envy, then, other than the motivational force behind trying to negotiate better for yourself? Most people have some form of it.

The claim that "people should just learn not to be envious" is a classist BS, because without some form of envy, nobody would be motivated to ask for better remuneration.

Drivers can negotiate too, through collective action. Of course they worry about billionaires, because billionaires worry about them in the first place - the billionaires invented Amazon or Uber, which employ these drivers and are the primary cause of their working conditions.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#167
post #25

Yes can confirm, in the USSR we had no political polarization. Everyone was always satisfied with the ruling party all the time. It was great joy.

In practice the USSR was an extremely unequal society in terms of wealth distribution. Growing awareness of the enormous gulf in the standard of living and political power between the nomenklatura and the quasi-enslaved contributed substantially to its collapse.

I do not know about USSR, but AFAIK at least in Czechoslovakia the communist leaders do not really have big personal property. They have enormous political power and also access to property through their functions (assigned appartments and official cars), but not in form of direct ownership.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#168

Yes can confirm, in the USSR we had no political polarization. Everyone was always satisfied with the ruling party all the time. It was great joy.

> Yes can confirm, in the USSR we had no political polarization.

Well, yes. People in concord hated the regime.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#169
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to try and negotiate better whatever for yourself. But if stress about someone else having more is your driver, I think you're suffering needlessly.

My point was, what is envy, then, other than the motivational force behind trying to negotiate better for yourself? Most people have some form of it. The claim that "people should just learn not to be envious" is a classist BS, because without some form of envy, nobody would be motivated to ask for better remuneration. Drivers can negotiate too, through collective action. Of course they worry about billionaires, beca…

[deleted]

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't we been doing "tough on crime" policy for decades now? We had the entire war on drugs, which we're really only just now collectively pulling back from and realizing was a mistake. We passed prohibition on alcohol. We did stop-and-frisk, all that crud. And our mental illness diagnoses and treatment processes are better today than they've ever been (even if the overall health care system is a mess). We know mor…

> it starts to feel more like "tough on crime" is a philosophy rather than a data-driven, falsifiable theory. Just recently it was reported that after the cops were not allowed to chase car thiefs, car thefts went up 50%. https://mynorthwest.com/3327635/dramatic-rise-in-car-thefts-... The recent decriminalization of looting has also resulted in a surge of stealing and crime in cities. Businesses have to spend a lot t…

Eh, and this is always the response.

The problem is that we saw crime increases before police protests and defunding movements, including in cities that aren't in California, so it really doesn't make sense to blame the recent "defund the police" movement for all of that increase. When you actually sit down and do the math, there is no strong correlation between police defunding/reforms and the recent crime wave -- cities that didn't alter their policing strategy also saw increases in crime.

The other thing that's worth bringing up once again is that people don't just claim that decreasing crime... decreases crime. They claim it decreases inequality, they claim it's responsible for decreasing other ills. But the only stats that they're ever interested in are crime stats, at which point they just kind of jump to the conclusion that "of course businesses will have to spend more money to armor stores."

There's not good data to support this -- the most convincing example is San Francisco, which when you dig into, also doesn't really hold up. Store closings in San Francisco aren't that much higher than the rest of the country.

> This will increase poverty and inequality.

And again... opposed to before?

What's frustrating about this is that we have a strategy we're trying -- tough on crime -- that is not reducing inequality. And whenever anyone suggests alternative strategies, the response is, "that will make inequality worse." But the existing approach is not working right now. It's all based on fear of what's about to happen. It's not based on looking back at historical data and saying, "we implemented stop and frisk and then people got better jobs." Because that didn't happen.

It's always based around this idea that society is about to fall apart, not tangible data that crime rates are causal for the other harms.

Post reply on HN